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Permalink Reply by Hari Menon on April 18, 2013 at 2:19pm

Dear Paul ,

      It is easy to get rid of the thoughts that are chaotic and create "white noise" - man is within the cosmos and is an integral part , a part just as a blade of grass is there , we believe that what each of us does is unique but it is not so - acts like walking, eating, talking, seeing, hearing , giving and taking, excretion , breathing , feeling i, procreating, and sleeping are all the same in everyone and each is a cosmic action , as far as human beings are concerned things like thinking ,feeling and reasoning , remembering etc are also cosmic actions (here I do not mean the individuals particular actions but the various faculties in the general ) . What is personal is our views of the world, peoples natures, nature per se, and God - these are all an out crop of individual feeling thinking and emoting - what is to be understood is that each of us builds a world or nature or God in the way we believe is true , but these are never the same for each - The right thing is to understand this fact and remove this rubbish which we have created - the world is all the same for everyone like a stage for a drama , to see it as different is stupidity and to superimpose our feelings and perceptions on the world because in doing so what we do is we "see ourselves" apart from the world and the world as away from us , whereas the concept world cannot be bereft of ourselves , so too for cosmic and personal nature , and so too for Personal god and Self , the self like the world is only one but we just choose to se it as we please as also nature - life is so much more enjoyable once we remove our selves from this "apartness " and integrate ourselves into these ideas as they are supposed to be as one becomes "undistanced" in knowledge from these things in actuality . It would be like correctly rationalizing in the following way - If a thought arises of my parents or my friend - you have to understand that either of the objects are located in the world at some particular place , so why should you carry this thought within you ? In due course your memory becomes the world and the word Idea of world will be in "real time " and in the here and now . Since everything that you can ever think of the world is located at some place in the world - why on earth should you think of it ? When you physically come across an object you have to deal with it thats all , so in effect what you are doing is "placing your mind" in the world . I may be sounding crazy to people who may not understand this but it is the truth and can be experienced by practice . After all what is memory ? You cannot think without memory and it is "esoteric" or inner as you say - but consider this fact - You are sitting at home and then thinking of a place you had been to a few years before - now how is recollection effected ? The two places are in different locations - neither do you carry the place in you nor does the place come to you - It is the ego which makes you feel that you have "remembered" something - actually the memory resides at the very place you were and the impressions are there at the very place you were in the past . How is this remembered sitting at another place ? - It is easy if you understand that since you are all pervading , but due to body consciousness which is temporary you have specific and temporal memory - but you are at the place where the past took place in the world even in the present due to bodilessness , so you are at the place of original memory and in your present location also (where you are existing as a  specific point in infinity ) . The rememberance is done through consciousness which is yourself at both points at the same time - so why on earth should you again "create a world" by thought inside your head or consciousness over and above the one already there ?. With deep thinking you can get rid of all thinking and then intuition will be continuous and unbroken . There is neither chaos or structure when the thoughts subside there is only the self everywhere and it is immediate, immanent and the one real thing and peaceful and it is yourself , you will only see the body as if like some object within you .ie in the world . I  do not mean to confuse you - there is a world of difference in seeing the world without you and as separate and with yourself in the world - the world Idea changes a lot and the body is seen along with the world within you (ie the self ) and  not as the world idea within you as now (ie,within the body as a concept or as a knowledge of the world and knowledge of yourself as different from the world due to body consciousness ) . In both cases you see within yourself but the "yourself " differs one is Ego and the other is Self - there is a huge difference between the two . Just place your mind and memory in the world - in any case everybody thinks and then speaks so it is their mind speaking - so the world is mind only - no need to read anyones mind , everyone speaks from mind and all words are mind only - only problem is that the person speaking does not know that it is the mind he is displaying - and thinks it is he that is talking and the mind is different - no for such people the mind is only an idea within them and in a million years they will never find where their mind is . Free yourself of the thoughts and memories .i will narrate a story :

Two ascetics were travelling on foot and when they came to a river a young girl was standing and asked them if they would help to ford the river - one of the ascetics refused saying that it was forbidden for hm to have ant interaction with ladies , the other ascetic simply asked her to sit on his shoulder and they all crossed the river - the girl got down and the asectics continued on their way - It was an uncomfortable silence and after some time the ascetic who had carried the girl asked his friend why he was so troubled and thoughtful and the other one replied "But why did you carry that girl on your shoulders-?" - the other one just replied laughingly - Brother I left her at the river bank did you not see it ? But why are you still carrying her in your mind ? "

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Permalink Reply by Hari Menon on April 18, 2013 at 10:51pm

Dear Paul ,

     you cannot but in a limited way only consider the analogy of a computer environment to that of the relation ship between the mind and the brain - but however much I am disinclined to agree with the anlogy - I will try to help you by extending it a bit furthur - you may in a more appropriate manner consider what I have previously written in the light of the following extension to your analogy -

Your brain or the "Hardware which you call" may be considered as the personal computer that you have and it is individual , anothers computer is of no use to you in terms that everything in it other than the operating system may be different . Of course in some cases the OS will also be different in which case only the physical computer is your brain or akin to your brain . Now where or what is the mind ? You are wrong in comparing it to software in a general way - it is not a good way at looking at things - software and applications are millions and will be different from computer to computer - The right analogy to the mind would be the World Wide Web in its entierity (ie. www minus the computers) . Now why is this a more universal standard ? It is because it works just as the mind does - a man resolves he will do something and types in a url to some page or information he wants - whilst there he sees something cathch his attention and jumps on the url to another topic and from ther to yet another and yet another and ends up so far away from where he started - it is like the mind jumping from a thought to another thought without rhyme or reason and takes away a persons efficiency or his ability to correctly think - But if a man is more controlled and has analysed carefully - obviously he will go to doing what he wanted and disregard any emotions or stimuli which creates his curiosity to "jump" from url to urls and end up somewhere not at all in keeping with his original thought . The mind is just the same way , you have to see things in Universals and as applicable to all and it has to be true to all people and then evolve right ways of thinking and ethics - it is lack of self control that requires parental controls etc , if each person was correctly resolved to use the compuret or "jump" into www with the right idea obviously he will answer his mailas and shut down and do his busines in the world instead of living a "virtual" life hiding behind computers with all the attendant psychosis that it carries. The mind unfortunately is like a bad computer user on the www from birth itself . Now tell me where is your brain which is individualized and where is your mind ? . Everyone owns his coputer and exercises "will or so called resolves etc" over his particular unit only - but the www in its all (taking all the languages it is in ) is obviously a concept and yet a reality and is larger than the brain or all the computers put together - it is subtler and so pervades the grosser elements - so ? Where or what is your mind and where is the brain ? What is the ambit of the mind and senses ? is it in the brain or outside and encompassing the brain ? One is matter the other is subtler matter known as a concept only by the "materialistic person". Realities not seen can only be conjectured as concepts and ideas by man - the truth is to be found out by right thinking - not by swimming along with your useless thoughts , you have to detach yourself by self control - just as prudent users of computers detach and do the thing on hand and then only jump around or shut the computer down - everything about god and the self is "Purposive" nobody does anything without being purposeful , even thought has to be for a reason and 'on something" - it has to be done with will and self control other wise how will you have thought culture and concomittant will culture ? Self control and ethical and purposive use and decision making is everything - God does not do things purposelessly - everything is of use to another except him - and yet there is the devil in his details - why cannot man aspire to be the same ? Commonsense - I hope the analogy is clearer to you may be it will also benfit the millions of computer afficionados also . Sombody is gonna be rich by these ideas !!!.

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Permalink Reply by Hari Menon on April 19, 2013 at 12:10am

Dear Paul ,

     Emotions are physical and are understood by everyone and include the more crasser type of things like lust, anger violence etc. Feelings are more sublime and cannot be put exactly into words - like love, compassion etc - they are only understood as words by us all . 

The Brain is physical and responds to stimuli the same way a plant or tree responds - it is non conscious and only and has nothing to do with the mind or intellect - the brain in certain cases may show some manifestations of subtler things but that too only in a very limited manner , it is of no use to a philosopher or metaphysician or a man of religion nor to ordinary people - the fact that it responds to stimuli is the only thing of interest , nothing more - to a scientist it will hold more fascination - which is useless in our search .

You mat call it biochemical , physico logical or whatever but it dies with the body that is the main thing and the question and great experiment is whether man can live without a brain and this is the experiment one does on oneself and never on another . So just stop connecting god or the self with brain . It is just dead and dying matter .

It is quite strange is it not ? You yourself say that you want to do something , but you are made as if to act "by another " - this is ignorance in the classical manner - for a conscious thing cannot be controlled by a non conscious thing , if that were the case then you yourself would be non conscious and existing for the sake of another and so impermanent . Who is the person wanting to focus the mind and who is the person who is disturbing the first person ? It is impossible that such a situation can happen in a conscious entity .

The same man cannot say that he wants to do something good for himself and then again say that he is helpless to do so in the same consciousness !! How many people are you ? and who is that wants to do good and who is that wants to disturb ? . I cannot quite understand this most untenable position - You have to enquire who am I !!!.

You know the chatter returning so it proves you are not the chatterer - but you are wrongly identifying yourself by consciousness with the chatter !! . So your ego says the chatter is you , you cannot be both subject and object at the same time , Tap into the moments of lucidity where you find that you are a witness of the chatter and not the chatter itself.

Affirm yourself Paul not your thoughts , you can never be the thought , you are the thinker not the thought , the thought is an object of the thinker and the thinker is knowledge alone.

    You have to have memory culture , thought culture and will culture all have potency only if knowledge is there and then it becomes intuitively purposive. Do not dissipate your valuable energy on wild thinking . If you catch your self starting to think just look at a tree or a chair and try to remember every aspect of it with open eyes and then try remembering on one subject at a time - it is painful but bring your attention to the chair or tree every time you stray. Find the point of divergence by keen vigilance and observation let thoughts come at random (this is another way ) and find the moment of divergence everything happens with a reason , you may think of a tall man and suddenly remember a circus the next moment because you have to dig deep and you will find that tall has jumped to dwarf or shprt man etc. Or some colour has attached and jumps to another thing with same colour in memory ie. as example - a chocolate brown chair and an ice cream next so you infer it is chocolate colour or the chair in the soda pop shop or at home rtc - make strong connections with purpose and train the thoughts to associate correctly the way you want , do not interpret thoughts and get involved in them , the moment you get involved "pull yourself away from the thought" - it is like a recalling yourself to yourself. Learn how the mind makes a cinema from the time you wake up to the time you sleep daily , understand that the object seen in the mind IS NOT the exact object seen or experienced outside initially , slowly prise yourself away from the feeling of EXPERIENCING your thoughts as true in thinking of objects by reminding yourself that the real object is outside of you located somewhere and not inside - in time everything will become clear . The mind is ones gratest friend it has to be lovingly manipulated as one would insidiously do to a mistress or a lover and overcome . It becomes the reason for very much good once you learn to treat your mind as your greatest ally , it will revel itself and its secrets , it will play with you like a child and guide you like a master and stand by you like a friend .    

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Permalink Reply by Hari Menon on April 19, 2013 at 1:51pm

Dear Paul ,

     Thought is singular , thinking is never done on thoughts , thoughts are the vehicles only just as language or words are the vehicle of communication , one thinks on a subject through the vehicle of thought . Thinking is always done on a subject matter (by which I mean a topic or an item of interest ) Thinking on thought is an aspect of thinking on a subject in order to analyze it better . Who ever heard of being entangled in thoughts ? It is always a subject that one thinks of , what is the point if a multitude of thoughts arise and a person falls into them as if like into a whirlpool ? There is no action of thinking in such facets of life . 

Comprehension is the ability to grasp the essentials of a body of language whether it be a book , a news paper article or poem or any such thing . A person with a good comprehension would be able to understand the nub of any body of writing and what it is concerned with in a nutshell . 

Normally the subject of a letter or of any good writing for that matter will indicate the essence of the work . Some writers have been singularly endowed in giving very significant names to their books which give the essence of the book in a glance . 

eg. First and Last Freedom , An Outcast of the Islands, Human All too Human , Sense and Sensibility , The Birth of Tragedy , World as Will and Idea , War and Peace , Crime and Punishment , Remains of the Day , Tree of Man ........and a million others . I had elsewhere written about a faculty called Pratibha - people who have that rarely need to read anything just a word from a book or an article will give them the full understanding of the subject matter contained - but it is more to do with higher consciousness .

Antonyms, synonyms and classification of things which are particular into their general are  very helpful in training the mind and gaining to a good thought culture .

The mind is the place where the senses congregate , it is the "brain" of the subtle body or sookshama sharira . The Self is yourself and not the mind - the mind is an instrument for the empirical self . In the state of deep sleep there is no mind , nor intellect - Intellect is required for apprehending the world , without intellect a man with a mind will not be able to apprehend the world , mind is the vehicle for thoughts , thoughts are the vehicles for ideas and words and language are the vehicles of communication . Ideas arise from feelings . Feelings are at the root of every thought . Every thought or idea unfolds from feelings . It is our interpretation of feelings that give rise to thoughts . 

Thinking on thoughts reduces all thoughts into a single idea viz, that of thoughts , one then has to creativeky observe the thoughts that arise and then think on thought and not on the thought that arose !!!. One has to think "ON'' a thing not "IN" a thing . If it is mind one has to think on the mind not in the mind and if intellect it has to be On the intellect and not in the intellect . When a person thinks on thoughts in general and their nature he will slowly by also observing his thoughts that arise and the process of thinking come to understand the mind and how it works . Everything else is speculation and shadows like the bogey man . How on earth can a person assume that everyone is talking of something they know just because the word "mind'' or "|intellect" or consciousness or ego is there ? . Why do they not require evidence proper as in all other things but just speculate that "it is of this nature and not of this nature '' etc ? where is the proof of these statements ? - It is a matter of experiencing and verification and understanding and controlling them by the individual - everything else is worthless knowledge .The mind like evrything else has its rules of working , and certain distinctive ways beyond which it cannot work , so obviously once these are known to a person he knows the mind proper and it displays its capabilities to the earnest seeker as also its ambit and it shows a person what the areas of magic are and how it behaves in such areas, or in the areas of what is called "madness'' etc or the "astral or psychic" . They are only different modes of the mind . It shows how coincidences appear and what psychosis is and what it is in reality . Just as we have a head on our shoulder and hands and legs the mind is an appendage natural and part and parcel of the thing called human being - why is it looked upon with so much distrust, reverence, illogic, unreasonableness. or love or etc ? It is stupid and due to ignorance of its nature and functioning only . Who ever heard of worshipping an arm or a leg or a head or hating it and trying to eliminate it !!. We live in the dark ages still , it just shows how clouded man is still  and full of double standards -evidence and proof on one side calling it science and speculation and ignorance on the other hand and calling it mind , intellect, consciousness or ego . Strange way to know the Truth !!.So whatever man professes barring a handful of people on earth evryone else are actually purely materialistic and body oriented , they understand words only and theories but are not willing to look into the actualities . Knowing that one is the universe through reasoning is one thing and realizing it is another , There are laws of conduct in every sphere of action Physical , mental and Intellectual - just as there are laws of conduct on the physical plane and the body cannot act in excess of those - there are laws operating on the mind - the mind is known when these laws are known and it too has limits , so also the intellect and ego . Right or wrong in Yoga a man MUST have an opinion himself not doubt - and then proceed , the wrongs will be cleared through teachings from inside - but idle speculation is worth less . For this we have the words of people who know so that the broad nature of mind , intellect, nature, consciousness, will, intuition,ego etc are known so that we can identify when we stand within that particular modification of the self . 

Doubt is the mind  - this is an infallible rule of thumb to know when you are standing in the mind .

Determination is the quality of the Intellect - this again is a rule of thumb which never fails .

Randomness is the quality of the mind , structure is the quality of the intellect .

Any acquired knowledge is lower knowledge or secondary knowledge and it is in the intellect .

Concepts are Ideas of Ideas and general and of two types - Concrete and Abstract .

Ideas are from feelings and are of particulars and it is "felt" and understood by the individual and is highly particular . It cannot be used for transmission of knowledge .

A tree seen and known by a person resides as an Idea and feeling within oneself and is immediate knowledge and acquired . Since it is known as a feeling the Idea cannot be used to transmit knowledge . It is personal .

A tree as an Idea and converted into a concept and made general is what is used to covey knowledge of a tree to another person - only generals which are concepts are used in transmission of knowledge . 

These are not my rules or anybodies - they are the almighties rules and laws prescribing how these appendages or inner equipments work . We all unconsciously overrun these working principles of these instruments by mixing up our consciousness and referring to as "I" which includes the body consciousness and the mind and intellect and ego and self in an undifferentiated manner . 

If you try to explain " A TREE" to another person you will see that you can only explain in generals which is a concept but we loosely use the word "Idea" instead and say I will give you an idea of how a tree is (to a child ) and then proceed to deliver the concept 

This is too long sorry ... stopping  forever .

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Permalink Reply by Seth Edwards on April 18, 2013 at 9:50pm

Dear Hari,

     I don't know if I can contribute here, but I want you to know that your words have helped me. Considerably. Thank you both for sharing.

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Permalink Reply by Capt. Anand Kumar on April 18, 2013 at 10:34pm

The process of how one loses one's true self to the material world is described quite succinctly in the classic Hymn of the Robe of Glory.

Mind, as described by ancient Indian seers is the "Absolute Abstract Motion". Since motion is the basis of its existence and thoughts the product of that motion, linear thinking will naturally conclude that cessation of thoughts would be the way to attain peace.

Can there be another way? Another explanation?

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Permalink Reply by Hari Menon on April 18, 2013 at 11:34pm

Dear Captain ,

   I do not know of linear thinking or otherwise - but the cessation of thoughts is  a prereqisite for self realization . There is no other way , and the stilling of thoughts is the hardest part of the journey into the self . Meditation begins only after thoughts have been stilled .Because meditation is our natural state . There may be millions of ways or paths or whatever you may call it but the upshot of it all is to still the mind. A mind without thoughts is no longer a mind , it is god itself .

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Permalink Reply by Capt. Anand Kumar on April 19, 2013 at 10:12am

Thanks Hari.

A mind without thoughts is no longer a mind , it is god itself .

Agreed. That's why there are so few of them.

Using the product (thought) to kill the principle or the process (mind) which created it would not be considered linear by many. Could it be that the created is greater than the creator? Many science fiction writers would perhaps testify to this possibility.

Should that be so, then another possibility emerges, i.e. of going beyond the motion. Cessation of thought implies killing of motion, but expansion of thought, including as many possibilities as possible may perhaps lead one to travel beyond the motion.

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Permalink Reply by Capt. Anand Kumar on April 20, 2013 at 9:20pm

Thanks Jessica.

What or who created this motion, expansion, pulsation

If one goes by the account of creation given in Rg Veda 10.129, popularly called the Nasadiya Sukta, it would seem that the motion (The Great Breath) existed before creation. 14 different commentaries on this sukta are available fpr study from our download section. Please go to RESOURCES > STANZAS on the menu on the home page. This great breath could also be TIME or creator of TIME. The people who have written those commentaries have spent their lifetime studying just this. New commentaries are coming out as well. Yet we have not been able to fathom the depths of this particular hymn.

If nature is motion or if motion is nature, killing it, or even opposing it, subduing it would scarcely make man one with it.

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Permalink Reply by Capt. Anand Kumar on April 19, 2013 at 10:17am

Well Paul. In Non-linear thinking, the differences between oranges and apples will be retained, while the similarities between them will perhaps be highlighted. Both are fruits, round in shape, possess color, sweetness as well sourness etc. Nature is non-linear at all levels.

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Permalink Reply by Hari Menon on April 19, 2013 at 11:11pm

Dear Paul ,

    I could not but help comment on what Joe has written , you have to understand that in Vedic reasoning we do noy have linear or non linear thinking whatever they may be - but Joe is correct - The Idea is to learn to move smoothly from the General tp the Particular and from the particular to the general at all levels before one uses this type of reasoning - Joe is correct ( I never go by the Western definitions for the simple reason they do not exist in Indian Philosphy). 

Apples and Oranges are to be seen as Fruits in the general and apple as apple in and Orange as Orange in the particular . I have to again emphasize the importance of a clean thought culture as the intellect is structured and above the mind and is secondary knowledge - if you do not get the concepts and ideas clear it will be a case of the mind corrupting the intellect - no work will come out from that. Just out of solicitude to your predicament I am trying to clear the air from my side - but a warning - you HAVE to be prepared top revise whatever knowledge you have learnt till now - this is is  a sine qua non of both western and eastern philosophies - in fact it is a requirement of philosophy itself and not of any  method.

KNow the basic generals first and fill in the gaps intuitively , leave the question if you cannot solve it and the answer will come to you in a reasonable period , but you must remember the questions posed to the Will and so be able to trace the answer when it comes to you to the EXACT question and not to some other thing in your fancy . You cannot proceed in Spirituality without a good memory and your self alone is the Trainer of memory . For the ultimate beautitidue is nothing but remembrance of your true nature .

Now of seeing things from the general to the particular - (I can only give some pointers the rest is upto you )

There are three words - Vyashti ,Samashti and Swagatham .

Vyshti = Individual . Samashti = Group , and Swagatham = within the same individual thing or object .

  I have only mentioned these words for your edification in case you are interested to pursue it further - but its essence I will state  below .( I am using the example of a Pear Tree ).

1. "A" Pear Tree  - this is in thought and in action as one cogitates on seeing a Tree - It is General and Particular - In the following way :

Physical : (You see a Tree and identify it as "A'' Pear Tree )

Mental : (The impression of the Tree reminds you of "A" Tree)

Intellectual : (The memory of Tree is compared and identified as "Pear Tree").

Egoistical : (Implied in the cognition ) : That what I am seeing is a Pear Tree or That is a Pear Tree (to oneself ) or To another externally . "I'' am knowing, "I"am seeing,"I" Knew it as ,(in Past present and future ) are implied as a logical conclusion whether thought to oneself or uttered . 

In English Language : None of the above exist unless you have learnt phonetics or Philology or some other thing .Even then it is only a learning and never becomes a settled knowledge inhering in ones cognition and in life and living .

in english "A" is an article of speech . It simply denotes A thing in language and speech .

"THE" Tree - (Particular) as in pointing out a specific tree - This is express - Implied is as reply or in cogitation -The Tree has withered meaning "That Tree or This Tree " (whilst cogitation ) or in reply to another in converstaion .

"The Pear Tree " - General in the Particular  - as in a dissertation or giving knowledge to another . It is the concept TREES plus the IDEA Pear Tree (attributes) . 

Trees are the genus and Pear trees are the species.

It is writing and thinking on a specific Topic . 

WRONG LANGUAGE AND THINKING : The pear tree is dead . Not exactly  !!  

RIGHT THINKING AND LANGUAGE : That Pear Tree is dead or Dying (as the case may be ) . Or This Pear Tree has withered away etc etc.

Similarly This is a pear tree (nearness indicated with specificality), That is a pear tree (distanced but specific).

Some Pear Trees etc etc . 

Now these things have to be analyzed WITHIN you only and seen how you say one thing and mean another - and the knowledge will be yours - once you can tap into this within then you will see what is your character and where it requires correction , now the beautiful part of knowing oneself from within is that once you realize the process of how you think and correct it - then knowledge takes over and everything is done automatically . 

This is how focus and purposiveness is built up and concentration and meditation by Wisdom .

Just as recap - why this is to be done internally sitting in a chair and having a beer and looking inside is that - you must understand that there not being anyone else but you whilst thinking - you are perfectly poised to understand by observing how you think and interpret statements made by yourself or oin observing things. What I mean is that , eliminate stating the obvious (since it is already known to you ) and look for what is implied in a thought or interpretation  . eg.

You look at your house and think "Oh this is my house " or "I am sitting in my house" - Eliminate these rubbish thoughts which create an echo - obviously you know you are in your house then why should you "Talk" to yourself as if you never knew where you are and so have to say to your self I am in my house that is my wife she is cooking ertc etc !!! It is stating the obvious and already known before you think - kill such thoughts and sink in silence . and then see what is a thought !!!! 

 

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