Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Michael Simon on November 24, 2011 at 4:09pm

"It's all a draft until you die," and "Process not product" was suggested to me by a poetry teacher. Do systems, by their nature, have purpose? Or do I create/envision a system because I seek purpose/worth?

My sense is I seek purpose (or, the purpose of an economic system is) so that I may "feel" secure. Wether this security is real is illusionary I know not. "All life is flux." - Aristotle

"The opposite of war isn't peace, it's creation." - Rent (musical)
Which is not to say I view system or creation as "bad," but that I view them as without-purpose; until I impress my individual purpose upon them. Or that I view system in polarity - there is no system without non-system. A rigid system breaks. A flexible system bends. A rigid belief/definition limits (closes). A flexible belief/definition is limitless (opens).

I like things. I just don't see things have meanings or purposes in and of themselves.
What Michael's purpose is is for others to define. I live, I serve, regardless of definition.

Permalink Reply by Capt. Anand Kumar on November 24, 2011 at 9:24pm

Thanks Martin. Indeed this question is fundamental to our study.

I have thought about it for a while and have reached similar conclusions as yours and David Korten's. The purpose of an economic system is to serve the humanity by defining the processes through which exchange of goods, services or knowledge can be facilitated. The Industrial Revolution has resulted in making the humanity subservient to this process and not vice versa. The economic system based on the principles of 'maximization, standardization, synchronization... etc.' has taken our independence away from us.

Permalink Reply by Martin Euser on November 25, 2011 at 4:02am

My take on this is, that an economic system should serve the fulfillment of the basic needs of individuals, households, groups, and society as a whole. It can be a simple system, based on simple rules of trade, or more complex, where there is agreement on the use of tokens/chits that serve as carriers of transaction value.

The question follows naturally: how well does our current economic system (which has been designed by human minds) serve us? It seems to serve some people well (the already rich), but the vast majority of humans on this planet have big trouble making ends meet. Another question pertains to basic needs. What or which are they? Are they the same everywhere in the world? 

David Korten shows, in his writings and lectures, that our current system has failed abysmally. It is not sustainable or viable and we will have to replace it, rather sooner than later. Our representative democracy has failed too. Our politicians have become subservient to the interests of big capital: Wall Street and the lobbyists of big firms. This is wrong. Politicians should serve the interests of their constituency. Time for a true democracy, where people do have a voice that matters.

Values

The above points all have to do with the values we hold, our view of life. Do we want success, wealth, health and  happiness only for ourselves? Do we not depend on others for our education, infrastructure, and their help at our jobs as co-workers? This is an essential point to consider!

 

Permalink Reply by Ferran Sanz Orriols on November 27, 2011 at 9:20am

 Hi, friends!

The word "economy, like "ecology", comes from the Greek "oikos" that has become "eco" in modern languages and means "common room"... so we can say that this criminal system we all suffer is not even worth the name "economic". This system is collapsing and the economical system we need starts from the true understanding that we all humans share the same needs: food, housing, medicine and education; and that these sacred needs are not to be under market laws, but guaranteed to everyone.

 The demand of true democracy is rising all around the world, change has started, we are part of it. Warm blessings, dear friends!!!  

Permalink Reply by Michael Simon on November 27, 2011 at 10:23am

Does the Perfect system come "on demand?" The "right" system will indeed come "on demand." Does Truth come "on demand?" Is Truth not beyond-demand (what does Truth need)?

Permalink Reply by Capt. Anand Kumar on November 27, 2011 at 8:08pm

Welcome Ferran. Long time no see. Where have you been?

Indeed, as David Korten very powerfully puts it, we are the ones we have been waiting for. We need to make this change happen. Sooner rather than later.

Permalink Reply by Michael Simon on November 27, 2011 at 8:42pm

There is a season for all things. I can force the harvest, desiring relief/sustenance/security sooner than later, and/or I can observe the seasons and be moved accordingly. Either way, there is cause and effect. None of my expressions are suggestions to stop-doing-things. I can't stop doing things. I've tried. Not-doing is unnatural in regards duality. In regards non-duality, not-doing is an expression of wisdom/insight, and reveals to one not what one should do, but what one is to do.

Permalink Reply by Michael Simon on November 27, 2011 at 10:19am

I experience no ill-will but rather compassion toward the already-rich today, whether they have always-been-rich, or aquired-wealth-gradually or aquired-wealth-suddenly. 
I experience compassion but no concern today toward the already-poor, wether they have always-been-poor, or became-poor-gradually or aquired-poverty-suddenly. 

The perfect system's within, and manifests without. I wish it could be otherwise; I hope it will be otherwise.

Security-for-all's a wonderful thing, and is already available to all. It just can't be seen/intuited by all. And this is as it "should" be. To seek a division (a particular system) to curb division (conflict between poverty and too-rich) is but to perceive right and wrong (for all). And perception is not "wrong." It is, rather, perfectly God-given. And it can be an Obstacle or a Vehicle. 

All systems, like all waves, like all people, rise and fall. And Perfection remains - without ill-will; without concern; compassionate. 

OoOoOo

13

Success is as dangerous as failure.
Hope is as hollow as fear.

What does it mean that success is a dangerous as failure?
Whether you go up the ladder or down it,
you position is shaky.
When you stand with your two feet on the ground,
you will always keep your balance.

What does it mean that hope is as hollow as fear?
Hope and fear are both phantoms
that arise from thinking of the self.
When we don't see the self as self,
what do we have to fear?

See the world as your self.
Have faith in the way things are.
Love the world as your self;
then you can care for all things.

- Tao Te Ching