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Re: "cant" when used in the 1900 letter; Oxford dict. says: "hypocritical and sanctimonious talk, typically of a moral, religious, or political nature". "Cant" about Masters should stop, not "talk" about.
Belief in the Adept Brotherhood was never required by any TS group or the Masters themselves, but it was never forbidden nor discouraged either.
Ten years before the 1900 letter, Besant's devotional tendencies brought her to suggest that HPB & the Masters MUST be accepted, even valued more than the TS ideal of Universal Brotherhood. Blavatsky & HT Patterson disagreed. So there is nothing new in the present anti-authority cause.
Study CW 13: http://www.katinkahesselink.net/blavatsky/articles/v13/y1891_004.htm
Did not the world witness all the backstabbing that went on during last election and most of them are true believers and when a lie was proven to be a lie, none of the true believers called a spade a spade? Every one of them was mum.
I am reminded of the advise KH gave to APS, "Be loyal to the Ideal rather than to my poor self," and APS was advised to charge ahead with action without worrying about whether it is small or big.
The formal numbers and their direction of growth, in the theosophical organizations seem to indicate what this misdirected emphasis and priority has done to the great ideal meant to help everyone in the world - "Forlorn Hope.'.
It is time for all of us to think and meditate over and come to our own conclusions.
Might as well blame it on the Brothers themselves. They were the ones who chose HPB & told her (in 1874 or 5?) to found a "religio-philosophic society". They (M, KH et al) also said that most of Their Adept Brothers did not think the 19th cent. effort would be successful and so stayed on the sidelines.
Humanity is not (never has been) a good candidate for living any form of real spiritual life.
K. Paul Johnson said:
The negative change in the direction of Mahatma-worship and spiritual authority was described quite vividly by HPB herself in these passages to Franz Hartmann:
When you speak of the "army" of the deluded-- and the "imaginary" Mahatmas of Olcott-- you are absolutely and sadly right...I had known Adepts, "the Brothers," not only in India and beyond Ladakh, but in Egypt and Syria,-- for there are "Brothers" there to this day. The names of the "Mahatmas" were not even known at this time...Olcott became crazy...Damodar, Servai, and several other fanatics, who began calling them "Mahatmas"; and little by little, the Adepts were transformed into Gods on earth..I have desecrated the holy Truth by remaining too passive in the face of all this desecration, brought on by too much zeal and false ideas.
If only she had remembered this before creating the ES, which would destine the Theosophical movement to a century of Mahatma-worship.
Hello all,
Since this is technically "my" discussion, I would like to finally throw in two cents. IF ascended masters do, indeed exist, they are not particularly welcome to comment in this discussion. IF they do exist, they know how I feel, and would never impose their presence when not welcome, because there is too much other stuff that they need to be doing. Now it will be very interesting to see who disappears.......
Those of you who know me, know exactly which cheek my tongue is in.
This discussion is for mere mortals only, who are seeking to find a theosophy without the benefit of spooky teachers who show up unannounced. Totally western of me to do this without a guru, no?
ST :)
Thanks Susan.
I am reminded of a famous Urdu couplet inspired by Sufi thought:
Har Zarra Chamakta hai Anwar-e-elahi se
Har saans ye kehti hai, hum hain to khuda bhi hai.
Loosely it can be translated as:
Every speck of dust in the universe shines with the light of one,
And every breath of ours dictates that THE ONE exists because of us.
It is us who create God, Mahatmas etc.
And many thanks to you as well. Often, I need to be reminded of this.
ST
Capt. Anand Kumar said:
Thanks Susan.
I am reminded of a famous Urdu couplet inspired by Sufi thought:
Har Zarra Chamakta hai Anwar-e-elahi se
Har saans ye kehti hai, hum hain to khuda bhi hai.
Loosely it can be translated as:
Every speck of dust in the universe shines with the light of one,
And every breath of ours dictates that THE ONE exists because of us.
It is us who create God, Mahatmas etc.
If we had time to create an "agenda" it would not be to place ourselves at the top of anything. Exactly what would be attained by a "coup" of a movement such as this? Sorry, I am so worldly as to not see this as being to my advantage somehow. The original intent of this discussion was to dialogue why science and religion (or more specifically-morality) have a gap that allows scientists to perform various "advancements" to our genetic structure that I personally feel to be detrimental to our spiritual quest.
First, I could be wrong, and monkeys passing on green feet to their offspring may be just what my spiritual quest needs.
Second, someone might be able to explain to me why I am wrong.
Still listening to the discussion, but remembering that fundamentalism of all sorts closes the thinking mind.
You certainly do not have to accept that I do not think that any perfected human beings are relevant to this discussion. My only question is, if they are out there, why is science doing what it's doing without a challenge from them?
And I do not have to accept the idea of perfected human beings per your philosophy.
I do not feel threatened by your belief in perfected beings any more than I feel threatened by other fundamentalists who believe that I exist at the will of a whimsical god for only one life time on the off chance that I will be worshipping it when I exit stage left.
ST
My vision of the way theosophy should change begins with Theosophers getting scientists on board with an ethics committee made up of people who can cull the very basic moral threads from all the world's religions so that scientific practice can be made morally responsible for it's actions. This way all the world's traditions could have a voice, on common ground, with how we want scientific discovery to proceed. The moral implications of genetic engineering are profound, as well as nuclear research and other fields of study. In my opinion, THEOSOPHY AND ONLY THEOSOPHY has the background to undertake this endeavor.
Just to be clear, I am not the kind of student or scholar who would be adequate to sit on such an ethics board. I do not want this for myself. I want this for the world. That is the real reason this thread was initiated in June of 2009. For me, this is why theosophy has to change. There is no place for an ancient or even old-fashioned approach to comparative religion. We were charged with studying and comparing religions, and this would be the ultimate focal point in today's times. Give our study meaning and make it relevant. It is the study, and not the teachers from the past that we need going forward. Again, just my opinion, and absolutely no place for me personally in this endeavor.
Should we consider Ethics and Morality to be static concepts, defined by a few and frozen in time? Does society give Ethics and Morality unto itself or vice versa? Should science become subservient to religion? We have seen what happened in the past when this was the case. Someone had to drink poison. Another one was persecuted for saying that the earth is not flat.
Finally evolution took care of that and even the esoteric of the highest order like HPB had to include science in her theories.
The biggest apprehension against the genetic engineering we have is the creation of a Super Intelligent class which will rule over others by default. As if this is not the case now. But also historically this has been the case. When one compares the knowledge contained in the ancient scriptures, with the condition of humanity in general prevalent at that time, it does appear to be the work of a super intelligent race. Most traditions of the world carry stories of humans and other beings changing form. Should we believe that doing it by invoking a mantra or other such means is alright but not by taking an injection developed through use of genetic engineering? Numerous patients around the world today benefit from the Stem Cell Therapy. Should one believe that it could be possible without decoding the gene first.
Human gene has survived and thrived against all the onslaughts nature and evolution wreaked upon it, by changing and becoming smarter. Let us trust that it will continue to do so.
The field(s) of Science in this area (Ethics) are actually huge. Scientists will not trust people with a 'Religion' in their mind. I love the example (true) where a major religious group in the USA wants to ban 'Organ Transplants' if the organ comes from a suicide victim. Allowing the use of those organs will promote suicide across the country because the suicide victims will justify their suicide (to themselves) in that 'someone' will live the happy life that the suicide victim will never have. It is 'clearly' more important to spend money trying to ban those transplants rather than give the money for medical research into depression. This is where the Scientists find that opening the door to Religions brings in more problems and less likelihood of ever creating a sensible set of guidelines. Even the word Moral is bad. Every Quack is Moral. That is the moral of religious experience by many scientists . (not all moral people are quacks, obviously). The details get even worse as each guideline is applied to an actual specific case.
The one group that actually has clout are the Humanitarian philosophers, or Humanists.
People may want to look at the site: www.bioethics.net
The entire field, just in the 'bio' part of Scientific Ethics, has now become a separate Degree. A good example is the Bioethics program at Mount Sinai Hospital School of Medicine:
http://www.bioethics.union.edu/biorhodes-Rosamond_Rhodes_PhD_Online...
If you see the various journals she publishes in, you get the idea of the scope of a single subset of Science and Ethics. There is nothing that is 'static' . The entire field is as 'dynamic' as Science itself. If you find the crowd/group you want to stop and talk to, as soon as you've stopped you are way behind the crowd.
Someone needs to already be in place before the starting gun goes off. Otherwise, you are out of the race.
So, what I am really trying to say is that we need more theosophists in place, i.e. the world, before we have any probability of getting an entry into the game. I think internet presence, open doors, open minds and open hearts will be a haven from the insane business world. People will look for that. That alone is a good reason for us to be here. That is the always the critical point. It is always in the beginning of things......
Peace
Susan Thomas said:
My vision of the way theosophy should change begins with Theosophers getting scientists on board with an ethics committee made up of people who can cull the very basic moral threads from all the world's religions so that scientific practice can be made morally responsible for it's actions. This way all the world's traditions could have a voice, on common ground, with how we want scientific discovery to proceed. The moral implications of genetic engineering are profound, as well as nuclear research and other fields of study. In my opinion, THEOSOPHY AND ONLY THEOSOPHY has the background to undertake this endeavor.
Just to be clear, I am not the kind of student or scholar who would be adequate to sit on such an ethics board. I do not want this for myself. I want this for the world. That is the real reason this thread was initiated in June of 2009. For me, this is why theosophy has to change. There is no place for an ancient or even old-fashioned approach to comparative religion. We were charged with studying and comparing religions, and this would be the ultimate focal point in today's times. Give our study meaning and make it relevant. It is the study, and not the teachers from the past that we need going forward. Again, just my opinion, and absolutely no place for me personally in this endeavor.
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