Moderator
Was Blavatsky right that astrology is true?
Madame Blavatsky (HPB) seemed to say sidereal astrology is true but tropical may not be: she at least described how it is less accurate. I still see many non-Indian theosophists sticking to tropical astrology and misunderstanding sidereal, which of course has to use 360 degrees, though a friend I discussed it with did not seem to realize. However I am getting off-topic.
HPB may have said astrology is true and that some other divination is not, but she said to be skeptical. I am skeptical and think astrology is not reasonable beyond its fundamental idea that heavenly bodies exert forces.
I will not even get into why tropical astrology is unreasonable because my skepticism of sidereal will use a few of the same points. How many ways can you divide up Earth's orbit around Sun, and what would the number for each way represent? (numerologies have useful ideas about a series of numbers out of infinity from zero to however far the numerology goes.) The simplest is the orbit can be divided into two either from perihelion or halfway. There are probably several other ways beyond two that might have some useful symbolism. However, what astrological systems mainly do are divide up the orbit according to arbitrary constellations from pre-civilized people. One idea Ken Wilber has is the pre/trans fallacy. Pre-rational ideas may not have any rational interpretation. So, how are constellations from pre-civilized people or even civilized ones carrying on imaginary traditions rational? I think they are not. There is no natural unit of time that really corresponds to the divisions in sidereal astrology. There certainly is not one in tropical because it is not even based on current time but alignments about 2000 years out of date, and not even Earth's orbit.
I do not deny that all matter in the universe is in equilibrium in which all bodies of it exert a force on all others. So, heavenly bodies affect us. However, saying constellations, which are not bodies, affect us is pre-rational. Maybe it is not even worth dividing up Earth's orbit unless you divide it into a place for every known star. I do not know if dividing it in two leads to any astrological truth, and certainly dividing it in four does not correspond to the seasons because perihelion & aphelion are not solstice & equinox. There could be infinite ways to divide the orbit, and it depends on whether space is boundless or if anything outside the light-cone of the known universe affects Earth.
It is interesting to find a meaning for each number from one to the number of Sanskrit letters, but I am not sure Pythagoras was right by being preoccupied with the symbolism of one to ten. One later mathematician was killed for proving irrational numbers exist, and why would any natural one be more important than the uncountably infinite irrationals? I just wanted to say non-name numerology in a scientific context may be more interesting than astrology. That could include numerological interpretation of sacred texts, but we might find out that it is as unreliable as astrology. Of course the texts may have hidden meanings, but who knows if it is of more than historical use. I guess one could say astrology is of the same historical use, but I wanted to point out these skeptical ideas even if HPB said astrology was true. Maybe it is only true to the extent it is based on physics, which is the basic idea (though physicists try to deny it all) and nothing more.
HPB may have said astrology is true and that some other divination is not, but she said to be skeptical. I am skeptical and think astrology is not reasonable beyond its fundamental idea that heavenly bodies exert forces.
I will not even get into why tropical astrology is unreasonable because my skepticism of sidereal will use a few of the same points. How many ways can you divide up Earth's orbit around Sun, and what would the number for each way represent? (numerologies have useful ideas about a series of numbers out of infinity from zero to however far the numerology goes.) The simplest is the orbit can be divided into two either from perihelion or halfway. There are probably several other ways beyond two that might have some useful symbolism. However, what astrological systems mainly do are divide up the orbit according to arbitrary constellations from pre-civilized people. One idea Ken Wilber has is the pre/trans fallacy. Pre-rational ideas may not have any rational interpretation. So, how are constellations from pre-civilized people or even civilized ones carrying on imaginary traditions rational? I think they are not. There is no natural unit of time that really corresponds to the divisions in sidereal astrology. There certainly is not one in tropical because it is not even based on current time but alignments about 2000 years out of date, and not even Earth's orbit.
I do not deny that all matter in the universe is in equilibrium in which all bodies of it exert a force on all others. So, heavenly bodies affect us. However, saying constellations, which are not bodies, affect us is pre-rational. Maybe it is not even worth dividing up Earth's orbit unless you divide it into a place for every known star. I do not know if dividing it in two leads to any astrological truth, and certainly dividing it in four does not correspond to the seasons because perihelion & aphelion are not solstice & equinox. There could be infinite ways to divide the orbit, and it depends on whether space is boundless or if anything outside the light-cone of the known universe affects Earth.
It is interesting to find a meaning for each number from one to the number of Sanskrit letters, but I am not sure Pythagoras was right by being preoccupied with the symbolism of one to ten. One later mathematician was killed for proving irrational numbers exist, and why would any natural one be more important than the uncountably infinite irrationals? I just wanted to say non-name numerology in a scientific context may be more interesting than astrology. That could include numerological interpretation of sacred texts, but we might find out that it is as unreliable as astrology. Of course the texts may have hidden meanings, but who knows if it is of more than historical use. I guess one could say astrology is of the same historical use, but I wanted to point out these skeptical ideas even if HPB said astrology was true. Maybe it is only true to the extent it is based on physics, which is the basic idea (though physicists try to deny it all) and nothing more.
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Clint Davis on
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Maybe astrology helps us to see what tides and forces are in effect at a particular point in time, but that does not mean that those particular planets and stars actually set the forces in motion.
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I know little about astrology and used to consider it hogwash. It seemed ascribing all these minute affects to the heavenly bodies was just balderdash. But it occurred to me, that we undoubtedly are subject to _cycles_, and that the heavenly bodies are mostly, and merely used as time-keepers, to indicate various cycles that interact, and that we are subject to. They are time-keepers, and not - for the most part - the source of the influences themselves.
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ModeratorPermalink Reply by M K Ramadoss on -
Astrology is extensively used in India during the life times of most people. When a child is born, one of the first things that is done is to draw a chart and the astrologer just checks on how long the child is going to live.
I had a very interesting personal experience. When I graduated with a Master's Degree in Mathematics and Statistics, one of my professors who is a dabbler in astrology wanted to see my chart. When I showed him, in ten seconds he told me that I am going to be an accountant. In Indian circumstances such a change in the vocation is impossible. I did not discount or accept the prediction. It was 20 years later that I accidentally became an accountant and enjoyed every second of my work.
There is also the well documented account of Jiddu Krishnamurti life. Soon after he was born, the astrologer who drew up his chart, told his dad that this kid's chart is rather unusual from a positive angle. Every time the astrologer used to run into his dad, he used to inquire how the kid is coming along. Something in the chart might have indicated to the astrologer something extra ordinary.
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Permalink Reply by Andrea Taylor on
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As Above, So Below is the fundamental principle that influences astrology's true power. Think of the planets moving in symphony through space, as a sort of giant time device. Each planet exerts it own long, and short wave vibrations (or consciousness) into existence. When soul, and physical body together are brought into being, a massive surge of energy from our own star system exerts it's energy onto your being.
If you don't understand or comprehend astrology whatsoever, you are basically discounting a lot of what the major religions that 'theosophy' is based upon, studied and wrote about so extensively. Christianity, Hinduism, Taoism, Judaism, as well as Greek/Roman, Egyptian, Mayan, Native American, and other religions have based everything upon! The deities and the gods were often representative of the planets, the sun being the masculine giver of life, and the moon the feminine "cycle bringer" to our planets own rhythm.
Even our own planet expresses it's own form of consciousness, that is a reflection of the whole of humanities current consciousness/state of being. Astrology is also the ticking clock that drives all of the 'cycle' ideas that so many cultures and religions wrote about and studied. The ideas that humanity evolves through ages based on heavenly influences is not a new one, and the constellations are the sort of "background" energy that emanate from that particular part of space (which is so freakin big, our little pea-brains can barely even comprehend the size of it all) influencing the planets, as well as us.
Each planet can mean something totally different when it is in every single constellation, because each constellation, or section of the sky, represents a sort of "wheel of life" that is also depicted in many sacred teachings; an ongoing cycle, or phase of energies dancing together. The sum total, is the grand effect of a dance we can barely fathom, but may not need to. The symbolic meanings of these powers has been passed down as one of the oldest sciences, and is believed to have led to the birth of many other sciences.
Astrology has always been called astrology, and astronomy is the newer term, because they used to be synonymous. Like our culture does with everything; the spiritual esoteric side of life must be stripped from the scientific, physically provable side.
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Permalink Reply by christinaleestemaker on
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Seven Forms of Light
Related to the Substance of 7 Planes
“It should be noted that there are seven forms of light, related to the substance of the seven planes. These are stimulated and enhanced by the twelve forms of light of the twelve Creative Hierarchies, related each of them to one or other of the twelve signs of the zodiac. On this I may not enlarge as it concerns the mysteries of the higher initiations. I simply make the statement so that it may be appreciated by you as an occult fact to the proof of which you may not yet have access. A paralleling statement would be that the light of the seven centres in man (when enhanced by the light of the seven planetary centres) and the five kingdoms in nature (7+5=12), plus the twelve lights of the zodiac will produce a consummation of "light" effectiveness which will make possible the expression of the whole. This, through the medium of humanity. This is a basic statement which means little to you as yet but which will—in the next century—form a seed thought or "key sound" for the next revelation of the Ageless Wisdom.”
The above heading is a key quote from the larger quote above. In attempting to keep a focus for this discussion I am confining myself to that which most directly relates to this quote. The overall context of this quote is about the crosses and must be seen from the previous part of the discussion by DK in EA562:
“The Light shines forth because the greater light and the lesser light approach and then invoke each other. Their blended lights, though not yet one radiant sun, are merging fast. These blended lights reveal the Lighted Way.” (EA562)
DK is talking about passing from the mutable (lesser light) to the fixed (greater light) crosses here. The crosses are the sum totals of the light of the twelve signs, augmented by the ‘light of the 12 Creative Hierarchies’.
Therefore, the aspirant moves from the “blended radiance” at the Pisces point of the mutable cross, to the Taurus point of the fixed cross. Here is where “A new light enters in” – the Seven Sisters of the Pleiades, through Taurus.
The Pleiades are the Mother or Third aspect, which has a direct correspondence to Humanity as the third centre, generically known as “Light”, in the trinity of Love (Hierarchy) and Power (Shamballa).
Uniquely at this time a large part of Humanity are poised to take the First Initiation, ruled over by Leo. It corresponds to the light of the Christ anchored within the cave of the Heart and has much to do with a deeper manasic development within the broader light of the third aspect.
Of course, Leo’s polar opposite Aquarius, into which we are moving upon the larger wheel, has its first decanate ruled by Saturn, offering opportunity for humanity to move through this first initiatory door. Saturn is ruler of the Third Ray and has a correspondence to the light of the Pleiades.
The fact that this Initiation is occurring en masse, and that other higher initiations are going on, means that the centre we call Humanity is steadily increasing in radiance. Hence the substance of the light upon the 7 planes is transforming and this is what DK may mean when he says: “…a consummation of light effectiveness which will make possible the expression of the whole. This through the medium of humanity.” (EA563)
ÑÑÑÑÑÑÑ Ñ 12 Hierarchies 7 + 1 + 4 liberated.
Builders, Attractive Agents. Embody 7 constellations.
Transmitters from outside solar system to inside.
Informing lives of all planetary schemes in system.
ÑÑÑÑÑÑÑ 7 Rays are vehicles for the Hierarchies. (TCF1195)
7 Rays + 7 Hierarchies = “Son” form-building aspect.
7 Rays dependent upon quality of Hierarchy.(TCF1196)
ÑÑÑÑÑÑÑ 7 planes - “sheathes” for Hierarchies. (TCF1195)
Each Hierarchy septenary = 49 fires of Brahma – 49 subplanes.
The quotes from TCF152-3 and TCF1183-4 are beautifully linked and I wonder are the cause of manifestation of the crosses:
“1. Separation is produced by rotary movement. By means of this action, all the spheres became differentiated, and form, as we know, the following atomic units:
a. The solar system, recognised as a cosmic atom, all the so-called atoms within its periphery being regarded as molecular.
b. The seven planes, regarded as seven vast spheres, rotating latitudinally within the solar periphery.
c. The seven rays, regarded as the seven veiling forms of the Spirits, themselves spheroidal bands of colour, rotating longitudinally, and forming (in connection with the seven planes) a vast interlacing network. These two sets of spheres (planes and rays) form the totality of the solar system, and produce its form spheroidal.
…Each ray of light…is … a sphere of matter of the utmost tenuity, rotating in a direction opposite to that of the planes. These rays produce by their mutual interaction a radiatory effect upon each other….
a. The planes rotate from east to west.
b. The rays rotate from north to south.
…By means of this very interaction, the work of the four Maharajahs or Lords of Karma, is made possible; the quaternary and all sumtotals of four can be seen as one of the basic combinations of matter, produced by the dual revolutions of planes and rays. (TCF152-3
Diagram by Cedric Dumas © 2001
“The streams of energy [GB,S,P] which pour forth through the medium of the Sun from the egoic lotus and which are in reality "logoic Soul energy" attract to them that which is akin to them in vibration. This may sound rather like the statement of a platitude, but is susceptible of really deep significance to the student, being accountable for all systemic phenomena. These streams pass in different directions, and in the knowledge of occult direction comes knowledge of the various hierarchies of being, and the secret of the esoteric symbols.
The main stream of energy enters at the top depression in the solar sphere and passes through the entire ring-pass-not, bisecting it into two halves.
With this stream enters that group of active lives whom we call the "Lords of Karma." They preside over the attractive forces, and distribute them justly. They enter, pass to the centre of the sphere and there (if I may so express it) locate, and set up the "Holy Temple of Divine Justice," sending out to the four quarters of the circle the four Maharajahs, their representatives. So is the equal armed Cross formed—and all the wheels of energy set in motion. This is conditioned by the karmic seeds of an earlier system, and only that substance is utilised by the Logos, and only those lives come into manifestation who have set up a mutual attraction.
These five streams of living energy (the one and the four) are the basis of the onward march of all things; these are sometimes esoterically called "the forward moving Lives." They embody the Will of the Logos. It is the note they sound and the attractive pull which they initiate which bring into contact with the solar sphere a group of existences whose mode of activity is spiral and not forward.
These groups are seven in number and pass into manifestation through what is for them a great door of Initiation. In some of the occult books, these seven groups are spoken of as the "seven cosmic Initiates Who have passed within the Heart, and there remain until the test is passed." These are the seven Hierarchies of Beings, the seven Dhyan Chohans. They spiral into manifestation, cutting across the fourfold cross, and touching the cruciform stream of energy in certain places. The places where the streams of love energy cross the streams of will and karmic energy are mystically called the "Caves of dual light" and when a reincarnating or liberated jiva enters one of these Caves in the course of his pilgrimage, he takes an initiation, and passes on to a higher turn of the spiral.
Another stream of energy follows a different route, which is a little difficult to make clear. This particular set of active lives enter the heart shaped depression, pass around the edge of the ring-pass-not to the lowest part of the solar sphere and then mount upwards, coming into opposition therefore with the stream of downpouring energy. This stream of force is called "lunar" force for lack of a better term. They form the body of the raja Lord of each of the planes, and are governed by the Law of Economy.
All these streams of energy form geometrical designs of great beauty to the eye of the initiated seer. We have the transverse and bisecting lines, the seven lines of force which form the planes, and the seven spiralling lines, thus forming lines of systemic latitude and longitude, and their interplay and interaction produce a whole of wondrous beauty and design. When these are visualised in colour, and seen in their true radiance, it will be realised that the point of attainment of our solar Logos is very high, for the beauty of the logoic Soul is expressed by that which is seen.” (TCF1183-4)
If we take some key sections from these two quotes and link them up, more light may be shed:
“…By means of this very interaction, the work of the four Maharajahs or Lords of Karma, is made possible; the quaternary and all sumtotals of four can be seen as one of the basic combinations of matter, produced by the dual revolutions of planes and rays. (TCF152-3)
So is the equal armed Cross formed—and all the wheels of energy set in motion. (1183)
They spiral into manifestation, cutting across the fourfold cross, and touching the cruciform stream of energy in certain places. The places where the streams of love energy cross the streams of will and karmic energy are mystically called the "Caves of dual light" and when a reincarnating or liberated jiva enters one of these Caves in the course of his pilgrimage, he takes an initiation, and passes on to a higher turn of the spiral. (1184)
All these streams of energy form geometrical designs of great beauty to the eye of the initiated seer. We have the transverse and bisecting lines, the seven lines of force which form the planes, and the seven spiralling lines, thus forming lines of systemic latitude and longitude, and their interplay and interaction produce a whole of wondrous beauty and design. (1184)
I am wondering if the following passage refers to the three crosses:
“The places where the streams of love [2] energy cross the streams of will [1] and karmic energy are mystically called the "Caves of dual light" and when a reincarnating or liberated jiva enters one of these Caves in the course of his pilgrimage, he takes an initiation, and passes on to a higher turn of the spiral.
Another stream of energy follows a different route, which is a little difficult to make clear. This particular set of active lives enter the heart shaped depression, pass around the edge of the ring-pass-not to the lowest part of the solar sphere and then mount upwards, coming into opposition therefore with the stream of downpouring energy. This stream of force is called "lunar" force [3] for lack of a better term. They form the body of the raja Lord of each of the planes, and are governed by the Law of Economy.”
So I wonder how closely these three streams of will, love and ‘lunar’ forces, correspond to the crosses, or indeed help make them up. Also, is the above ‘karmic energy’ a fourth stream, or a general pervasive influence?
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Permalink Reply by Master's Yoga on
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Astrology is changing. Results are getting wrong when compared with tradational astrology which was written 2000 yrs back.
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Permalink Reply by michaelcarlo on
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The constellations are the 12 creative hierarchies. It’s the path our sun takes through the heavens called the elliptic during the greater cycle when the sun moves retrograde into each zodiac consisting of 30 degree’s and 2100 years duration referred to as a Platonic Month or Messianic Cycle. It’s the ancient way of preserving the knowledge of the past symbolically for the new races and sub-races of the future because the system is unaffected by time as we relate to it. We have short memories and forget our past, thus having to repeat. The Avatars leave their mark historically but we seem to be having trouble connecting the dots. Examples, Gemini/Hermes, Taurus/Zarathustra, Aries/Krishna, Pisces/Jesus each one corresponding to the characteristic energy of the Hierarchy that rules at that time.
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I love reading what you write, it calms me. Thank you for this. i see wisdom here. you, my friend, are full of it. smiley face.
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Yes, very subjective. Especially if one were to contemplate her materialistic sister, Astronomy. I offer my poor allegorical example of the tree, with the trunk as the Galaxy, the branches as its spiral arms, the leaves as the Constellations, the inner cells within the leaf, Stars, the smaller minutia, Planets and we upon them. It puts into perspective our place in the Creation, for when it moves we have no choice but to go along for the ride. Did someone mention "free will"?
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I agree Sidereal Astrology is superior because it places the Sun in the exact Constellation the Sun transits through at the precise time of its occurrence. While the Tropical system I believe is flawed because it is about 24 degrees out of phase due to the precession of the equinox, a big problem for those who have birth signs on the cusp. The point of contention, rhythm and its cycles and their relationship to the Earth and humanity is fundamental to the Macro and Micro organism, observe the 7 year cycle of mankind (7 infancy, 14 adolescence, 21 adulthood). At the time of birth one becomes cosmically finger printed and lives another life endowed with the unique characteristics brought forth from the past incarnation combined with the new trans formative prevailing energy. “In the beginning (material existence) was the word.” All based on rhythm and cycle, witness the creative power of sound creating the sphere, matrix for the lower worlds.
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Don, REAL astrology is TRUTH. It is as objective as any science, being a science itself. We have lost the key. Read up on The Secret Doctrine. It's all in there. It's a shame how much we've forgotten in this "dark age". There was a time when all the people on the earth knew true astrology, or had accsess(spell-check??? yipes.) to Those that did. I wish we hadn't forgotten so many things. Think how grand it would be. smiley face.
Hope your day is filled w/ wonderful and exciting things! Julie
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