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ModeratorPermalink Reply by John on October 9, 2012 at 2:03pm

when you say you see formed matter ... do you mean macroscopic stuff?? (trees, rain etc)

If so, why would you expect to see unformed matter?

Light has to interact with something.

The something can be in the form of abstract energy.

take the northern lights. The energy in the E&M field couples with ions (and also can help form ions) which then interact forming photons/light and appears as light reaching your eyes. (simplifications are in several places in that last sentence).

if you are talking psychic vision... Science will have issues addressing that.

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ModeratorPermalink Reply by John on October 9, 2012 at 6:04pm

"I've seen unformed matter on t.v."

you have not seen unformed matter on tv.....  so, what did you see on tv and what was the name of the show??  images on the tv are virtual images, that which you actually see are the photons coming from the screen itself.

virtual images are what you see in a mirror. you see photons. (as an example)

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ModeratorPermalink Reply by John on October 9, 2012 at 9:32pm

don't give up so easy. I am the one trying to understand your thinking so I know how to use the right words to answer the question.

The atoms you refer to are small.

roughly, visible light is about 5000 times bigger than the hydrogen atom diameter. (thinking of the hydrogen as a sphere)
Hydrogen Atom Diameter~ 1 Angstrom or 0.1 nanometers =0.000 000 000 1 meters
visible light has a wavelength of about 500 nanometers

so, 1 photon (visible) is huge compared to the atom. (~5000 times bigger)

The wave of light is not affected by the atom. it is a piece of plankton in an ocean wave.

Plankton ~ 2 mm or say 0.1 inch
water wavelength of ~2 feet  (or bigger, doesn't really matter)

the water wave is never changed by the presence of the one plankton.


Gross matter (huge clump of stuff stuck together) is say an oil-tanker which disrupts the water flow easily and is visible by the bow-wave even if the tanker itself is invisible. i.e. you see the wavefront shaped like the oil-tanker. The wave is very small compared to the tanker. The wave is disrupted, you see the disruptions in the water wave.  The flipside is a piece of plankton doesn't deflect the water wave. The wave passes through the Plankton. You do not see the plankton by looking at the wave.

You need gross matter to ever see it with your eyes (which only see visible light).

You need to think in terms of "relative" sizes.

No reason to give up on these things.

John

Hail Plankton!!

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Permalink Reply by Hari Menon on October 9, 2012 at 11:32pm

You have done it !!........since you made the connection between unformed matter (infinity) and Atoms ... do not assume anything.

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Permalink Reply by Hari Menon on October 10, 2012 at 4:37am

Dear James ,

  Just to ease you out of your misery on the "how does...." cry - Take yourself as an example (what better one could there be ? ). The objects that you have transmuted into knowledge , the experiences which have transmuted themselves into knowledge over time ,the studies that you did in school over the years and considered as knowledge, everything heard but not seen transmuted into knowledge , and also of things existing but not seen or known transmuted as this very same knowledge (by which I mean the very knowledge by you that there are so many things still as yet unknown to you but which may be known to another person ) ie. of non objects (as a phenomenon which will 'shrink' as your intellect grows or gains in knowledge ) of the various things accepted as knowledge on authority , of the various things accepted as knowledge but known to be fantasy (like a griffin, sphynx,unicorn, ogre, goblins.......) - All these knowledge that over the years which have been accreted and still grows over time which you have used to define yourself is a transmutation of the formless knowledge pristine at birth and more stronger than anything seen or known so subtle , subtler than even the atom or even the eyesight - now known to you and called as yourself is nothing but the transformation of unformed identity into a formed one so closely associated with your body and experiences . The case of the unformed being turned into the formed . You can argue that at birth you had form - but remember this form is from the essence of the juices of the food eaten by your parents and given form through procreation , and food comes from rain. Remove the knowledge which you have aggrandized for yourself (and which is not you but only knowledge of objects) or appropriated and look at the question afresh . There is something intrinsically wrong if a man were to circumscribe himself with the knowledge of objects and stultify himself.

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Permalink Reply by Hari Menon on December 15, 2012 at 1:26am

Dear PLJ - you are looking at it in a skewed manner - Matter if deconstructed becomes its constituents , this the scientific community will be able to explain to you - but not the other way round - they do not have to prove matter exists as it is obvious to them and to everyone alive . Matter is the starting point of physical sciences , now in metaphysics also it is the starting point - but not atoms and molecules . You have to be able to correctly see things in the right perspective without mixing up and coming with potentially explosive situations. 

All Objects in the world can be divided into two divisions :

Natural Objects or Natural phenomena - ie. things coming into being without mans involvement - Tree , Grass , Sky, Clouds etc .

Man made Objects or Phenomena  - ie  All things that have been made by man - eg. Buildings, PLanes, Rockets etc etc.

In the first part ie  Natural Phenomena  we have to move metaphysically - the second part does not concern us EVEN in THOUGHT  - if it arises in your mind then banish it as not pertinent to your inquiry.

The first has another angle to it - all natural phenomena should  be TRACED ONLY ONE STEP TO ITS CAUSE not many steps  because then you will come to a doubt and what is called an infinite regression . The intellect will go out of gear and jump to fantasy and illogic - so here a line must be drawn and solace taken from that one TANGIBLE cause.

For instance - Tree from seed (not earth ) , Because if you consider earth it becomes removed from the effect substantially , you cannot have many causes for an effect . Only immediate cause is taken . Like children come from parents not grand parents and there it ends and knowledge is satisfied and reason is satisfied . Unlike tracing yourself to adam and eve and then to god it is too dangerous for reason !!!.

So only one cause is there for one effect this is the rule of causation . From Milk you get curd , From Curd you get cheese . Milk cannot become both curd and cheese .  And Cheese is not from milk but from Curd . An additional process transforming the original cause into an effect in itself which when again transformed by a process yield another effect .

And if you cannot see a thing and it is based on heresay or authority then that knowledge is infructuous (useless).

If your pastor tells you about god and adam and eve - you will have perverted reason . Eliminate the intermediary and look for immediacy (I am using all christian theological terms to the best of my knowledge ). So you are the effect and parents are the cause , Now check for universal validity and accept it if ok . Again only a human can be born to a human not to a sheep or cow or goat . Once you are happy then it helps in getting your mind and intellect in order. 

Always keep going to the general not the particular . If you come across a bridge and praise god for it you are mad , it is a man made phenomena and so some man or men are the cause . Kill any inclination to think in a loftier manner where you raise a bridge or car to god hood !!. This if practised (depending on your earnestness will settle as firm action by your presently unscientific thinking) . If you see a chair or a sofa it has to be (initially) classified as a manmade phenomena - discard any thought of wooden chairs and stell chairs and leather sofas and chippendales etc - kill those thoughts . So practice to distinguish between man made and natural phenomena . After you are satisfied of the integrity of your thinking, reason and logic then you are a happy man. Next would be to learn to classify all chairs and sofas and tables as "Furniture" - so you are a happy man as it does not make you unhappy - all furniture are after all man made phenomena . 

Next you learn that in furniture (or trees , dogs etc ) there are steel , plastic, wooden furniture etc . Wooden furniture is not wood you cannot reason that it is a tree - because tree is a natural phenomena - Wooden furniture is man made and so there is the intermediate action of a man on wood - a process is involved in between the cause and effect and so you have to assume an agent and instruments , so as you go into the particular more and more instruments and actions have to be assumed at each stage of transformation - this kills the reason and intellect . But you are allowed to think of say a wooden chair upto where a tree is cut by a man - but not the tree as the cause itself . 

So You have furniture - Wooden - Man - Tree 

Or Furniture - Steel Furniture - Man - Steel  no more 

So wooden furniture is from wood , steel furniture is from steel and plastic furniture is from plastic . (note that the agent and the process is eliminated ). This is to be done AFTER trying to think out the full process of getting a furniture WITHOUT encroaching your thought into Natural phenomena . So in variably you have to stop with man as man is the crossover from Natural Phenomena to man made phenomena (STOP - do not think further about this point ) .

So You are happy without getting into an infinite regression and dreaming and speculation . Speculation on Truth is the most dangerous thing . You move further away from it .

So every man made phenomena is traced to Man and by reasoning and acceptance without contradiction in you .

If you cannot find the right reason to aggregate man made  objects - there is another way of generalization - examine all man made things closely and you will find that they have Utility to humans . So if  a thing say Bean bag perplexes you do it as  ...Utility and then manmade .- stop all further thought as we are in cause and effect . 

You cannot consider a tree as a thing of utility by painting it as giving shelter in rain for you - because if you do so what happens is very very subtly you are attributing a utility to it and so Taking it into the common human ego as its invention - the intellect will classify within the knowledge as a man made object - because it has been ascribed a utility - why does this happen ? Because you as a conscious person is commanding the intellect to behave in a particular way - it is not self intelligent - it works as a general principle - you cannot specify at one stage - Everything has utility so it is mans , or everything made by man has utility as a universal statement and then say a tree per se has utility to man as shelter - shelter is  a home , in such cases the intellect discerns the man has a Abode !!!! and all his attempts to get a home will go useless - he will never get it . Utility is an attribute made by man as a reason for transforming Natural phenomena - this is dharma and is allowed by the universal will and knowledge in the intellect . We need not think that an animal needs a tree so it should not be cut etc. The intelligence reflected in laying down the usage of the intellect is ourself - as we have choice and impart flexibility to the intellect . It does not mean that we can use our intelligence to misuse the intellect - The intellect on its own works the way I have precisely described it - we have to first bring our knowledge and intelligence to be aligned with the working of the Intellect and mind - once it is achieved you need not lay rules to the intellect everything is automatic . Perception, classification, Identification, assimilation , and knowledge will be automatic . You will have  right reason and Logic . This is the preparation stage - so that the mind and intellect automatically will discern the truth (manifest ) - Once this is done you are free to do Metaphysical research as you will not descend in thought to the manifest knowledge - you will soar above the mundane thoughts of the world and into the rarified skies of the infinite without dropping into the man made phenomena . Automatically those relationships required for metaphysical thought are picked up with infallible acuracy by the mind and intellect and perfect understanding is there . it moves effortlessly between World , Man and Self . No thinking is involved . 

I hope I have been helpful .

.

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