Comment

Comment by David Reigle on March 8, 2011 at 9:43pm

Thank you, Capt. Anand, for this information. The massless gluons that possess energy do sound like vibrations. Then, the embedded Platonic information is indeed suggestive of a universal mind or universal consciousness. Regarding this, I must get back to the alaya and alaya-vijnana topic on the Stanzas blog.

 

I join Heidi in thanking you, Michael, for the link to the summary article on Dr. Deepak Chopra's symposium, which I, too, found useful. Also, on the link you earlier gave to Dr. Stuart Hameroff's website, I enjoyed the article on a skunk at an atheist conference.

Comment by Capt. Anand Kumar on March 7, 2011 at 12:40am

 

Thanks David,

 

Indeed, current science appears to be heading towards affirming postulations of HPB. It is our problem that we cannot fully comprehend what HPB actually described. Following from wikipedia (emphasis where added are mine):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quark

Mass

Two terms are used in referring to a quark's mass: current quark mass refers to the mass of a quark by itself, while constituent quark mass refers to the current quark mass plus the mass of the gluon particle field surrounding the quark. These masses typically have very different values. Most of a hadron's mass comes from the gluons that bind the constituent quarks together, rather than from the quarks themselves. While gluons are inherently massless, they possess energy—more specifically, quantum chromodynamics binding energy (QCBE)—and it is this that contributes so greatly to the overall mass of the hadron (see mass in special relativity). For example, a proton has a mass of approximately 938 MeV/c², of which the rest mass of its three valence quarks only contributes about 11 MeV/c²; much of the remainder can be attributed to the gluons' QCBE.

The Standard Model posits that elementary particles derive their masses from the Higgs mechanism, which is related to the unobserved Higgs boson. Physicists hope that further research into the reasons for the top quark's large mass, which was found to be approximately equal to that of a gold nucleus (~171 GeV/c²), might reveal more about the origin of the mass of quarks and other elementary particles.

At the most fundamental level, wverything is energy which are wave forms or vibrations. Also, Gluons may qualify to be one aspect of FOHAT. However, science has to progress much for that. Which can be assessed from the quote below from the contribution by Stuart Hameroff titled "Consciousness, Neurobiology and Quantum Mechanics" from the pathbreaking book, "The Emerging Physics of Consciousness", ISBN-13 978-3-540-23890:

In The Emperor’s New Mind Penrose suggested that choices resulting from OR (Obejective Reduction) were not random, but influenced by Platonic information embedded at the Planck scale, the fundamental level of the universe. Moreover, this particular type of nonrandom, nonalgorithmic (noncomputable) selection is characteristic of conscious choices, differing in a basic way from the output of classical computers. Penrose proposed that OR-mediated quantum computation must be occurring in the brain. Quantum computation (see next section) relies on both superposition and entanglement. Entanglement is stranger than superposition. Quantum theory predicted that complementary quantum particles (e. g. electrons in coupled spin-up and spin-down pairs) would remain entangled even when separated. Einstein, Podolsky and Rosen described a thought experiment intended to disprove this notion. An entangled complementary pair of superpositioned electrons (EPR pairs) would be separated and sent in different directions along two different wires, each electron remaining in superposition. When one electron was measured at its destination and, say, spin-up was observed, its entangled twin miles away would correspondingly reduce instantaneously to spin-down, which would be confirmed by measurement. This would require a faster-than-light signal that Einstein’s special relativity had precluded. Nonetheless since the early 1980s this type of experiment has been performed through wires, fiber optic cables and via microwave beams through the atmosphere. Entanglement has been repeatedly confirmed. The mechanism of instantaneous communication remains unknown, seeming to violate special relativity.

The use of expression Platonic Information Embedded at Planck Scale, the fundamnetal level of the universe is really suggestive of existence of "Universal Mind or Universal Consciousness".

Comment by Michael A. Williams on March 6, 2011 at 11:55pm

Heidi,

No problem, glad you enjoyed it. There could be videos from the symposium posted in YouTube. If and when, I'll post a link to them here.

Comment by Heidi Ann Maycroft on March 6, 2011 at 7:18pm

Michael,

Thank you for the link; much appreciated.

Comment by Michael A. Williams on March 6, 2011 at 2:25pm

Thanks, David, for the reply mention. As a follow up, here's a link to a short summary article on Dr. Deepak Chopra's 2011 symposium "Sages and Scientists.":

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alison-rose-levy/sages-and-scientists...

 

Although, I won't be participating in this endeavor of getting together a journal or a book, I think that the title "Tradition and Science" appears too vague and general. What "tradition"? May I politely suggest a change to "Wisdom Traditions and Science." Just a thought.

Comment by David Reigle on March 6, 2011 at 11:29am

To catch up a little here, thank you to Michael Williams for the links posted here (Feb. 26) to two websites pertaining the science, spirit, and consciousness research currently taking place. I was not familiar with Dr. Stuart Hammeroff's work, and I did not know of Dr. Deepak Chopra's annual "Sages and Scientists  Symposium."

On mathematics in ancient texts, some important new material has emerged in the last several decades. Of the two branches of Jainism, Digambara and Svetambara, it was long thought that the canonical scriptures accepted by the Digambaras were all lost. Then an ancient and extensive manuscript that had been preserved only for worship in a Jaina temple was transcribed and eventually published. The texts coming out of this are the hitherto unavailable Satkhandagama with Dhavala tika (16 vols., first published 1939-1959), the Mahabandha or Mahadhavala (7 vols., first published 1947-1958), and the Kasaya-pahuda with Jayadhavala tika (16 vols., first published 1944-1988). These include very detailed mathematical descriptions pertaining to Jaina karma theory. A couple of books on this aspect have recently been published. One is: The Labdhisara of Nemicandra Siddhanta Cakravarti: Summary Text from the Kasaya pahuda by Gunabhadracarya and Its Commentary the Jaya dhavala of the early Christian Era on Advanced Symbolic and Mathematical Theory of Karma and Beyond, by L. C. Jain, with the assistance of Kumari Prabha Jain, vol. 1, 1994.

I must agree that the contrast between traditions such as Theosophy and science generates force, and therefore interest. Good point.

Capt. Anand, in your last post you mentioned "the massless wave particle duality" in reference to possibly coining a new word to use here. Can you update us on current ideas in science regarding this? This sounds similar to HPB saying that atoms are called vibrations in occultism.

Then, Jacques raised the question of the central sun and black holes, which I cannot comment on, but I hope someone will.

Comment by David Reigle on March 5, 2011 at 11:58pm

On Vaisheshika texts, I suppose everyone knows that the central text or basic sourcebook of darshana systems such as this are their sutras; e.g., the Yoga-sutras for the Yoga darshana. These sutras, being concise in the extreme, require commentaries to spell out the system that they teach. So the central text of the Vaisheshika system is the Vaisheshika-sutras by Kanada. The only commentary available on the Vaisheshika-sutras for the past few centuries was the comparatively late one by Shankara-mishra. He says at the beginning that he wrote this based on the sutras alone, without other help. That is, he did not have earlier commentaries on these sutras to draw upon. They were already lost by his time.

The old commentaries that we know only by name, through references to them, are still lost. But some commentaries of intermediate age have been discovered and published in the last several decades, e.g., by Chandrananda and by Bhatta Vadindra. These have allowed significant improvements in our understanding of the Vaisheshika-sutras. More than that, they have very significantly improved the readings of the sutras themselves. The text used by Shankara-mishra had many faulty readings in its verses, also including some interpolated verses that should not be there, and missing a number of verses that should be there. Careful searching through old commentaries on other texts, in which Vaisheshika sutras were quoted, has also yielded important improved readings. The leader in this work is the late Anantalal Thakur, who passed away at the age of 94 near the end of 2009.

Fortunately, he in a sense capped off his life work not many years before he died, with a large and valuable volume in the History of Science, Philosophy and Culture in Indian Civilization series, titled, Origin and Development of the Vaisesika System (2003). In this book, he provides a Sanskrit edition and English translation of the Vaisheshika-sutras based on all the best readings so far recovered (pp. 24-121). This text supersedes all previous editions and translations of the Vaisheshika-sutras.

For this volume of this series, because of its intended more general audience, he has not provided the sources for each of his emended sutra readings. Nor has he even indicated differences from the text accepted by Shankara-mishra, and therefore accepted by everyone else for the last few centuries. So we still need the various editions of the Sanskrit commentaries on the Vaisesika-sutras discovered and published in the last several decades, and we still need the several journal articles giving lists of emendations, in order to see where a particular reading came from. But in this volume we have as reliable a text of the Vaisheshika-sutras as is so far possible.

Comment by dks on March 5, 2011 at 9:23am

This an extract from an earlier blog:

"..the alleged manifestation of supernatural phenomena, could be occurring in a field/aura that sceptics donot vibe with/fit in/perceive. An elementary example: ordinary magnets attract and pattern an observable field: but only with iron filings. Magical, till we know better, and discover a similar magnetic field by passing an electrical current through windings of copper wire.

The acclaimed esoterics of philosophy and spirituality are literally dumb-founding. We may be wasting time contemplating the Why, and glorifying the What - IT defies explanation. Scientists unravelling the How (Darwin, Einstein, Hawkings, Sagan etc) are humbly agnostic.

Noetic sciences will get a quantum boost in comprehending the How by integrating the studies of psychology greats such as William James, Freud, Jung etc and way-out mystical insights of spiritualists, with neuro-biology. Modern imaging/brain mapping techniques have got us closer to getting to know how we perceive.

Our sense of wonder and comprehension are inversely related. We are less superstitious today. Quite boring one could say! Yet there are seemingly unending wheels within wheels to learn about and navigate through. Its an exciting journey which serendipitously moves onward. To comprehend it all, experiencing 'open-eyed', in one single life-time, is not enough."

Comment by Capt. Anand Kumar on March 5, 2011 at 2:06am

 

Thanks Roopa and David, for explaining the limitations of the words Substance and Dravya.

 

What would be the arguments against coininig a new word, at least for use within this forum so the readers know exactly what is being referred to. For example, can we consider WAVEON (English) or DRAVYANG (Sanskrit - Dravya + Tarang) to indicate the massless wave particle duality of "Unconditioned Undifferentiated Substance", since these terms are expected to be extensively used in the future discussions.

Comment by David Reigle on March 5, 2011 at 12:51am

On the topic of atomism, it is usually thought that the Hindu Vaisheshika system teaches the existence of atoms, which it calls paramanu. The first four of the nine substances or dravyas taught in Vaisheshika are the four elements: earth, water, fire, and air. These are composed of paramanus, or atoms. But as stated by Jagadisha Chandra Chatterji in his very helpful 1912 book, The Hindu Realism, these paramanus have "absolutely no magnitude whatever." So he does not think that they should be translated as atoms (p. 19):

"Paramanus have been translated as atoms, which is most misleading. For atoms as conceived by Western chemistry are things with some magnitude, while Paramanus are absolutely without any magnitude whatever and non-spatial."

But translators right up through today still translate paramanu as "atom," or "particle." The word paramanu is also found in Buddhist Kalachakra texts. English writings on these texts almost always translate paramanu as "particle." We must be alert to the fact pointed out by Jagadisha Chandra Chatterji that, by definition, these are not atoms or particles in the modern scientific sense of being physical material atoms or particles. Yet we do not really have any other suitable word to refer to paramanus.

 

As for what these might be in the Theosophical teachings, HPB writes in The Secret Doctrine (vol. 1, p. 633):

"Atoms are called 'Vibrations' in Occultism; also 'Sound' -- collectively."

 

I do not know if or how this may pertain to the paramanus taught in Vaisheshika or in Kalachakra. There is also the fundamental Theosophical teaching on the origin of the universe from what was expressed as follows in the Cosmological Notes:

 

"the one unborn eternal atom or the central point which is everywhere and nowhere"

 

Roopa made an intriguing statement that seems to relate closely to this idea:

 

"I will answer from Vaisheshika perspective (which is also Vedantic anyway). If the whole universe can be reduced to say a few different substances as space, time, matter, mind, etc and if all of this has evolved from one fundamental substance we call aNu, then such aNu will not be like anything we know because obviously it preceds even space and time."

 

This rings true to me. Can we find textual sources for this idea? I will try to post some information on Vaisheshika texts tomorrow. It has been known for some time that the extant Vaisheshika-sutras and the commentary on them by Shankara-mishra are problematic. But in the last several decades, many original readings of the sutras and some older commentaries have been recovered.

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