"All waters are brooded over by Nârâyana, but every kind of water is not fit for drink. Similarly, though it is true that the Almighty dwells in every place, yet every place is not fit to be visited by man. As one kind of water may be used for washing our feet, another may serve the purpose of ablution, and others may be drunk, and others again may not be touched at all; so there are different kinds of places. We may approach some, we can enter into the inside of others, others we must avoid, even at a distance."
 -- RÂMAKRISHNA

These places being referred to, are not physical places. They appear to be places of the mind (perspectives). Fore different perspectives, even of the same place, yield different information. I cannot think of a physical place that is more harmful than the perspective that manifested it.

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Comment by David Allen on December 22, 2014 at 5:26pm

It does, and again I agree with you, it is belief. I use perspective because our beliefs filter the information coming in, just as our eyes filter the visible spectrum. So we cannot separate our beliefs from what we see. That connection must remain firm (in my opinion) lest we forget it.


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Comment by John on December 21, 2014 at 2:08pm

I would prefer "Belief" over what you are calling perspective. I think it still works as far as I can tell.

Comment by David Allen on December 20, 2014 at 4:49pm

No disagreeing there, semantics is exactly what we have been discussing. Only we have been looking at the root of semantics.......perspective.

Semantics deals with the meanings of things that perspective provides.

We all have our own language, we share words, but the meanings of those words are defined within us through our perspectives, making them our own.

It's no wonder communications is so difficult. We really need to base our language on something we all have in common. Then we would be able to communicate our thoughts and feelings more precisely. (right teaching)


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Comment by John on December 20, 2014 at 4:51am

hi -

good reply...

duality exists in the physical world, but it appears from/because of a  single source. e.g. two forces can appear because of a single Potential Field. You had a good example.

I think Ramakrishna has a point that there is one reality (including consciousness) which also has places/events to avoid. It is good to avoid stubbing one's toe (I loved your analogy). It is good to avoid poisonous water etc. It is also good to avoid consciousness which is evil etc.

I am not sure we have a disagreement. I basically agree with you. Maybe it is just semantics ?

Comment by David Allen on December 19, 2014 at 1:38am

Energy (as we know it) is a difference of potential. Heat moves from warmer to cooler, electrons flow from neg to pos, wind from high pressure to low. You just can't escape the dualistic nature of our physical universe.

Equally true, you just can't escape the unity in consciousness. If I am conscious, and you are conscious, then somehow, we share the same consciousness. Think about it. In what environment, under what circumstances, would this, could this, be possible?

Check this out.

Every child (from the moment of conception, through birth and beyond) follows (for the most part) a determinable path. The closer to conception, the more determined, closer to "and beyond" less determined (or so it seems at first). In actuality the amount of determinism, in each is the same, what differs is the number of determining factors involved. It is easy to see something that is 100% determined if determined by 1 thing, it is much more difficult to recognize that something is 100% determined if determined by uncountable determining factors.

Also consider that the potential exist for every human to say...stub their toe. Now they may not call it stubbing, they may not even call it a toe, but the basic experience is there, and is common, to every toe stubbing in the history, and future of toe stubbing. each stubbing is tailored to the individual based on uncountable determining factors that make each one appear uniquely personal. But all that is just decoration that's hung on an existing framework. The existing framework is the consciousness we share.


Moderator
Comment by John on December 16, 2014 at 5:02pm

today's quote shows his non-dualist belief:

 Every being is Nârâyana. Man or animal, sage or knave, nay, the whole universe, is Nârâyana, the Supreme Spirit.
 -- RÂMAKRISHNA


Moderator
Comment by John on December 16, 2014 at 4:33am

Thanks for the clarification on your "trials".

I do not believe there is a "Devil" as in the Judea-Christian-Islamic beliefs. Humans have the devil beat easily in destructive capability. <g>  If there is a "Devil" then he/she can learn a lot from from Human Beings. <g>  We would serve well as a "devil" training ground.

When I use the term Dualist, I mean a true separation between Atman and the God-head. In Advaita Vedanta (my leaning) there is no true separation. All is one.  I think you use the term differently (which is not a problem.

I think the rest I can basically agree upon.

Comment by David Allen on December 13, 2014 at 1:58pm

they're not my personal trials, everyone has them, we think they are different because of our perceptions, but they're not. It is in the sharing of our personal perceptions of the trials that the truth begins to take form. First in our thoughts, then manifested through us.

An enlightened being cast no shadow, the truth flows through them uncorrupted.

It has been said that the devils greatest lie was to lead us to think he didn't exist. Now I don't know anything about devils, but when I read this what stood out was ...to lead us....when this happens I am identifying the difference between it and my understanding. What came out of this comparison was "the devils greatest lie, was to think he didn't exist. We are our own savior, for it is our own lies that deceive us.

I believe it was the arrogance of man being described in an angels fall from grace, and again that transformed the garden of Eden (we wern't kicked out, the introduction of a second perspective changed it)

This universe wasn't created for us, it was created by us, we caused it, and it is up to us realize our mistake, and come back to the truth. To fix it.

Now, as horrible as that sounds, don't forget the duality here, that means we can stop the decay into "separatism" and begin moving in the direction in which our children are born healthy, suffering will begin to dissipate, despair, and hope will cease to exist.

When our understanding is such that we have restored the garden, then the rift we created will be healed, and our penance will be over.

It's not hard to change a perspective, it is hard to be willing to look deeper, strip away the confusion, and complexity we create to hide our sin, we create because of our sin.

All because we failed to have faith in the truth within us.


Moderator
Comment by John on December 13, 2014 at 11:07am

advaita vedanta - non-dualist vedanta

Kali Yuga - dark cycle in the world.

I appreciate hearing of your personal trials. It is hard to put oneself in a possibly exposed state on a forum. I think we are all compassionate here.

I am not sure I believe in Hell - except on earth, created by confused and evil persons. I am somewhat of a Gnostic Christian (with a lot of Hinduism thrown in), so I am not truly in a single state of belief. I have issues with all (organized) religions.

when you mention that Heaven and Hell are frames of Mind (perspectives), I easily agree with you. It is sometimes hard to change a perspective though. It requires a great amount of independent thinking.

Comment by David Allen on December 13, 2014 at 1:56am

I have looked into the abyss that exist within me. That seemingly bottomless pit of darkness and fear. I have walked to the edge of this pit, and flung myself into it. A fitting end for such as myself. God caught me and returned me gently to the edge, and said to me. "Very good Now go find me out there".
I went first to my son. Upon finding God within him, in "the joyfulness of a child discovering new abilities", I ran back to the edge of that abyss. prepared to shout what I had found down into the darkness. Before I could utter a word I saw in that dark place a patch of light. A little patch of light that is "the joyfulness of a child discovering new abilities" that already lived within me.
It was then that I understood that that abyss was full of darkness and fear because of my choices. I had put them there. That through my choices I had (for some reason) disguised (by my perceptions) that which is god and lives within me.

I have walked that road, seen the pavers, and found no one to blame but myself.

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