Comment

Comment by Christian von Lahr on March 25, 2011 at 3:16am

... addendum to my comment on "ON SOUND."  From the perspective of those involved in the phenomena, I would claify that the mind [interprets] the impression, AFTER it is impressed upon the Aura; as I have earlier mentioned.

Comment by Christian von Lahr on March 25, 2011 at 3:14am

Hmmm,  "On the mind?"  From my practical involvement I should think the impression is on the Aura.

 

ON “SOUND”

According to the Occult doctrine there is only One Reality in existence. In the unmanifest this Reality exists in an integrated form which is Whole, perfect and indivisible. But when manifestation takes place there is a change in this unique state referred to above and this change consists in the appearance of a disturbance of a nature which can best be referred to as a mysterious kind of “Sound”. This sound is not the same as the physical sound with which we are familiar, although the physical sound is a partial and limited expression of it at the lowest level of manifestation. The fundamental “Sound” which appears from the unmanifest and becomes the basis of the manifested universe is of a unique and all-embracing character as will be clear from the fact that all the infinite variety of phenomena we find in manifestation are rooted in and based upon it. It is an integrated state and these phenomena of infinite variety are merely the impression it produces on the mind when it is present in its differentiated forms.

Comment by Christian von Lahr on March 25, 2011 at 3:12am



Very interesting excerpt Capt.

ON ANU

Although these centres of Divine life and Consciousness called anu in Siva-Sutras appear to be scattered far and wide in the realm of Time and Space when looked at from below through the instrumentality of the intellect, they are really concentric, rooted in the Mahabindu, the Great Centre through which a manifested universe always appears from the unmanifest and in which it continues to function during the period of manifestation.

Comment by Capt. Anand Kumar on March 25, 2011 at 1:06am

 

Be it this discussion or on the Stanzas of Dzyan, we come around to Kashmir Shaivism, on which we have not been able to get sufficient scholarly inputs. However, there is at least one commentary by Noted Theosophist I K Taimni (former head of ES) published by TPH, Adyar with the title, “THE ULTIMATE REALITY AND REALIZATION -Siva-Sutra, which attempts to explain the deep esoteric truths of the foundational text of Kashmir Shaivism, in modern language. I quote below some of the texts, in the hope that scholars will expand on the concepts provided, for our benefit.

ON ANU

Although these centres of Divine life and Consciousness called anu in Siva-Sutras appear to be scattered far and wide in the realm of Time and Space when looked at from below through the instrumentality of the intellect, they are really concentric, rooted in the Mahabindu, the Great Centre through which a manifested universe always appears from the unmanifest and in which it continues to function during the period of manifestation.

 

ON “SOUND”

According to the Occult doctrine there is only One Reality in existence. In the unmanifest this Reality exists in an integrated form which is Whole, perfect and indivisible. But when manifestation takes place there is a change in this unique state referred to above and this change consists in the appearance of a disturbance of a nature which can best be referred to as a mysterious kind of “Sound”. This sound is not the same as the physical sound with which we are familiar, although the physical sound is a partial and limited expression of it at the lowest level of manifestation. The fundamental “Sound” which appears from the unmanifest and becomes the basis of the manifested universe is of a unique and all-embracing character as will be clear from the fact that all the infinite variety of phenomena we find in manifestation are rooted in and based upon it. It is an integrated state and these phenomena of infinite variety are merely the impression it produces on the mind when it is present in its differentiated forms.

 

As pointed out above, when manifestation takes place the disturbance which is created in the unmanifest takes the form of “Sound” of a unique character, its uniqueness being due to its integrated character. But taking the differentiated state of this “Sound” which folds expression in an infinite number of phenomena in the realm of manifestation, the question arises: What is the relation between these differentiated states and combinations of sound and the mental phenomena to which they can give rise? Are they produced in a haphazard manner with no definite relation existing between the two? No. According to the Occult doctrine each phenomenon observed by the mind is related to and based upon a definite and specific combination of differentiated sounds. This relation is exact and mathematical in nature because sound is a vibration and has a mathematical basis. So, we have two worlds, one of mind and the other of sound, existing side by side in the most intimate and exact relationship. The world of the mind is subjective in nature and rooted in Consciousness or the Siva-tattva of Hindu philosophy. The world of sound is objective in nature and rooted in Divine Power or Sakti-tattva. And each aspect and expression of one is related mathematically to its corresponding aspect and expression of the other and combining harmoniously to form a Perfect Whole. … the relation being mathematical because vibration can be measured exactly by its wave-length and represented by a mathematical formula. Thought transference which is a fact of experience again proves that knowledge is based upon “Sound”or vibration because in the intervening state of transmission the thought is present only in the form of a vibration and it is only when this vibration strikes the mind of the recipient that the corresponding knowledge is produced in his mind.

 

ON MANTRA

 A mantra, as every student of the Occult doctrine knows, is a particular combination of letters but its power resides not in the letters themselves but in the specific sounds which those letters represent. So, if the differentiated states of mind are nothing but mantras these states must be basically “Sound,” the word being used in its widest sense of any vibration or motion which can be represented by a mathematical formula.

 

So, it may be said in a general way that all the different states of mind, thoughts and ideas are essentially motions, harmonic or otherwise. But motions in what? In consciousness. Consciousness in its integrated and pure state is motionless or without any vrtti as we say in Sanskrit. A particular kind of motion or vibration in this placid but unimaginable medium, which may be of an infinite variety, at once gives rise to a thought or state of mind which corresponds to and is mathematically related to the vibration or vrtti which has given rise to it. The phenomenon is not unlike that of diffused white light falling upon a landscape and being converted by the atoms and molecules of the illuminated objects into coloured lights which are differentiated forms of white light. But for the presence of undifferentiated white light falling everywhere we could not see the panorama of coloured objects in the landscape It is interesting to note in this connection the following famous but enigmatic verse in Durga-saptasati, which tries to indicate the different stages of this descent of pure integrated Divine Power into lower and lower forms, ultimately reduced to different combinations of sounds constituting the objective base of the universe.

 

 “O Divine Mother! Of mantras you are the vibrational ‘sound’ basis; in the case of ‘Sounds’ you are the different kinds of knowledge related to those ‘Sounds’; in the case of these different forms of knowledge you are the different aspects of consciousness from which those different forms of knowledge are derived; and it is only through your Power that the Great Void of the Absolute in which all things in the manifest and the unmanifest are present in a perfectly harmonized form, can be perceived.”

 

ON THE ABSOLUTE

What is this ultimate state of the Absolute? In order to understand even partially the nature of this State we will find it helpful if we consider the analogous phenomenon of light. A spectrum of coloured lights can be converted into white light by passing it through a prism. But is white light the ultimate state in considering the phenomena of light as a whole? No! White light is also a vibration and this vibration can be neutralized by light of an opposite phase just as two sets of waves on the surface of water can be made to disappear into a level surface by arranging things in such a way that the ridges of the one set coincide with the troughs of the other. The result of such mingling of two lights of opposite phases will be complete darkness, neither coloured lights, nor white light but absolute absence of light or complete darkness.

 

This darkness, though it is a complete absence of light, has yet the potentiality of producing white lights of opposite phases and from these two can be produced two separate worlds of coloured lights which are similar but of opposite phases. The recent researches in different fields of Science which show the possibility of the existence of negative worlds give new information on this interesting question.

 

Mr. Taimni’s background in Chemistry and Physics allowed him to see things in perspective slightly different from those of other commentators. How can we develop on the knowledge imparted by Him?

Comment by David Reigle on March 24, 2011 at 12:59am

Most would agree that Patrick Olivelle's translation of the Upanishads is one of the most reliable. To show what we are up against in interpreting ancient texts, here is a 1911 translation of this same verse from The Sacred Books of the Hindus, vol. 1, following the commentary of Madhva. You will see that he takes the verb ejati as trembles in the sense of fear.

"This whole world trembles through (fear of this) Prana because it has come out of Him. He is a great terror like an uplifted thunderbolt. They who know Him verily become immortal."

"Madhva's Commentary:

"The whole world trembles through fear of this Hari called Prana, because it has come out of Him. To those who transgress His law, He is a terror like a raised thunderbolt."

Comment by Heidi Ann Maycroft on March 22, 2011 at 2:35pm

     +     -    

you mentioned, "

Let's give a try, keeping in mind the journey will be long and fascinating.

We have a bridge to build."

 

hpb repeats from others

"...or, it could happen in an instant."

 

 

 

Comment by David Reigle on March 22, 2011 at 1:43pm

I agree that Mr. Wood's translation gives the general meaning. But what the first half of Katha Upanishad 6.2 (2.3.2) says explicitly is this:

yad idam kin ca jagat sarvam prana ejati nihsrtam

yad (which) idam (this) kin ca (whatsoever) jagat (world) sarvam (all, entire) prane (in prana) ejati (moves, shakes) nihsrtam (come forth).

The word prana is in the locative case, prane (due to samdhi, prane becomes prana before ejati). So the meaning is "in prana." The verse, then, does not say "that the entire universe is MADE OF moving energy," or that "it is all MADE OF living energy," but rather that the entire universe is IN prana or living energy. So the Upanishad does not say of prana that its "fluctuations take the form of changing things," but rather that changing things or the entire world exists and moves IN prana. This statement might mean that everything is made of prana, but the Upanishad does not explicitly say this.

 

The Upanishad does explicitly say that the entire universe moves, or shakes, or trembles, or vibrates, all of which are meanings of the verb, ejati. This verb, ejati, is glossed by Sankaracarya in his commentary hereon as kampate, meaning shakes or trembles. Everyone would agree with this meaning, because Panini's Dhatu-patha gives kampana as the meaning of the verb-root ej when it is declined in the parasmai-pada, like we have here. In Sankaracarya's commentary on Brahma-sutra 1.3.39, this same verse from the Katha Upanishad is quoted, and ejati, by way of kampana, is further glossed as spandate, meaning vibrates or pulsates. This brings us directly to the word spanda that is central in Kashmir Shaivism. One can justifiably claim that the Upanishad says explicitly that the entire universe moves in the sense of oscillating or vibrating. But saying that everything is made of prana is an interpretation, however valid it may be.

 

Sankaracarya in his commentary on this Upanishad interprets prane as a locative absolute, meaning "when there is prana" rather than "in prana." He gives "prane parasmin brahmani sati," meaning "when there is prana, which is the highest brahman." So he is taking prana to mean brahman, and construing the sentence to mean the following: The entire universe that has come forth (nihsrtam) vibrates (ejati) when or because prana or brahman is there or exists. He says the same thing in his commentary on Brahma-sutra 1.3.39, glossing this same Katha Upanishad verse as: sarvam idam jagat pranasrayam spandate, "this entire world, whose basis is prana, vibrates." He is taking prana as brahman, and as being the background reality, making possible the emergence of the world, which vibrates. This is Sankaracarya's interpretation.

Comment by Capt. Anand Kumar on March 20, 2011 at 3:57am

 

Thanks David,

 

Indeed the quoted verse 6.2 of Katha Upanishad does not exactly translate into the menaing as inferred by Mr. Wood. But, as the following other translations of the same verse show, he is not far off the mark:

 

Kena & Other Upanishads, By Maharishi Aurobindo, Published by Sri Aurobindo Ashram Publication Department, 2001,Page 123:

 

All this universe of motion moveth in the Prana and from the Prana also it proceeded; a mighty terror is He, yea, a thunderbolt uplifted. Who know Him are the immortals.

  

The Yoga of the Kathopnishad By Sri Krishna Prem, Published by The Ananda Publishing House, Allahabad, Page 251,

 

(2) Whatever there is, this whole Universe has come forth from and vibrates in Prana. The Great Fear, the raised Thunderbolt—those who know that become Immortal.

(3) From fear of It Fire burns, from fear of it the Sun shines: from fear Indra and Vayu^ {perform their functions)and Death advances as the fifth.

 He further gives the explanation as:

The word Prana here is not employed as one of the pair prana and apana, still less as one of the set of five, but should be taken in its most general sense of Life, the One Life that is in all beings. Out of that Life the whole universe has come forth and in it it moves in its constant vibratory rhythm.

 

The Upanishads Translated by Swami Parmamnanda, Vol. 1, Published by The Vedanta Centre, Boston, USA, 1919, Page 86:

 

WHATEVER there is in the universe is evolved from Prana and vibrates in Prana. That is a mighty terror, like an upraised thunderbolt. They who know That become immortal.

 

Commentary on Katha Upanishad by Swami Krishnananda, Published by Divine Life Society (Internet Edition):

Yama: This whole universe evolved from Brahman, moves in the Prana (in the highest Brahman). That Brahman is a great terror, like an uplifted thunderbolt. Those who know this become immortal.

 

So, while Mr. Wood's translation may not be exact, the inference that Anu, (or Paramanu or Pudgala), Prana, Movement and Vibratory Rhythm are all inter-related, appears to make sense.  Perhpas he translates Prana as Living Energy as Sri Krishna Prem does. What is curious is the reference by all four to the "Raised or Uplifted Thunderbolt". What could this be?  

 

On this auspicious day of "Festival of Colours (Holi)" in India, I wish everyone at this forum a life decorated with divine colours.

Comment by David Reigle on March 19, 2011 at 11:55am

Sorry for the delayed responses as I try to catch up. In reply to your post of Mar. 16, Capt. Anand, you quote Ananda Wood as writing:

"The Katha Upanishad (6.2) says quite explicitly that the entire universe is made of moving energy, whose fluctuations take the form of changing things.

"The universe of changing things –
whatever may be issued forth –
it is all made of living energy,
which moves and oscillates and shines."

In fact, the Katha Upanishad does not say "quite explicitly that the entire universe is made of moving energy, whose fluctuations take the form of changing things." Mr. Wood gives here a paraphrase of the first half of Katha Upanishad verse 6.2, or in other editions 2.3.2. For comparison, S. Radhakrishnan gives us a translation of this verse that closely follows the Sanskrit:

"The whole world, whatever here exists, springs from and moves in life. (It is) the great fear (like) the upraised thunderbolt. They that know that become immortal."

What Mr. Wood writes may be implied here, and he may have gotten it from some commentary on this Upanishad, but the Katha Upanishad itself does not explicitly say this. We will need accurately reported sources in order to form reliable conclusions. It is unfortunate that so much of what is written is not fully reliable. This is why we must be able to check the original Sanskrit sources.

The reference you make to Kashmir Shaivism and its "spanda" or "divine creative pulsation" in relation to the "vibration" spoken of in Stanza of Dzyan 3.2 is promising, and should be further pursued as we get time to do so.

Comment by David Reigle on March 18, 2011 at 4:01pm

For the last several days I have been intending to post something on atoms as lives, but I am not sure whether it fits better on the Stanzas blog or here on the science forum with the atomism discussion. Even though science teaches that electrons revolve around the nucleus of an atom, I do not think that they regard this motion as being the result of life. That is, the fact that electrons are in motion has not caused science to regard an atom as a life, or as being alive. So my comments will not compare science and Theosophy, but rather will compare Theosophical teachings with those of another tradition, the Jaina tradition.

The Theosophical position that atoms are regarded as lives is clear and unmistakable. Here is a statement already quoted in the Stanzas blog:

"The Second idea to hold fast to is that THERE IS NO DEAD MATTER. Every last atom is alive. It cannot be otherwise since every atom is itself fundamentally Absolute Being. Therefore there is no such thing as “spaces” of Ether, or Akasha, or call it what you like, in which angels and elementals disport themselves like trout in water. That’s the common idea. The true idea shows every atom of substance no matter of what plane to be in itself a LIFE."
(“The ‘Secret Doctrine’ and Its Study,” notes of personal teachings given by H. P. Blavatsky to Robert Bowen, cited from An Invitation to The Secret Doctrine, p. 4.)

This teaching has been described as hylozoism, which is defined in Webster's New World Dictionary, 3rd College ed., as "the doctrine that all matter has life, or that life is inseparable from matter." Hylozoism is taught in The Secret Doctrine, vol. 2, p. 158:

"Hylozoism, when philosophically understood, is the highest aspect of Pantheism. It is the only possible escape from idiotic atheism based on lethal materiality, and the still more idiotic anthropomorphic conceptions of the monotheists; between which two it stands on its own entirely neutral ground. Hylozoism demands absolute Divine Thought, which would pervade the numberless active, creating Forces, or “Creators”; which entities are moved by, and have their being in, from, and through that Divine Thought; the latter, nevertheless, having no more personal concern in them or their creations, than the Sun has in the sun-flower and its seeds, or in vegetation in general."

This passage from The Secret Doctrine was quoted in A Treatise on Cosmic Fire, by Alice Bailey (p. 638, fn.), in reference to the "entified" nature of substance. The quotation was introduced with the phrase: "The 'entified' nature of all substance is technically known as Hylozoism." It was quoted in reference to the statement made there that, "it remains yet for science to acknowledge the 'entified' nature of substance, and thus account for the life that energizes the substance of the three lower subplanes." The footnote given there also refers to the idea that "an atom is an entified abstraction," from The Secret Doctrine (vol. 1, pp. 559-560, in the three-volume edition then in use, which is pp. 513-514 in the two-volume edition now in use).

Even before The Secret Doctrine was published in 1888, it had become known that the Jaina tradition taught a hylozoistic theory. In Hermann Jacobi's introduction to Jaina Sutras, vol. 1, published in 1884 as vol. 22 of the Sacred Books of the East series, he wrote:

"A characteristic dogma of the Jainas which pervades their whole philosophical system and code of morals, is the hylozoistic theory that not only animals and plants, but also the smallest particles of the elements, earth, fire, water, and wind, are endowed with souls (jiva)."

This idea was also stated by K. C. Lalwani in his Translator's Foreword to vol. 1 of the Bhagavati Sutra (Calcutta: Jain Bhawan, 1973), p. xi:

"Among the traditional scholars, the Jainas are credited with having taken a hylozoistic view of nature which means that there is nothing formed in the world of matter, that nothing exists in space and time, which is not some form of a living organism."

This certainly sounds like the Theosophical teaching of hylozoism that is taught in the Secret Doctrine, and for long I took it as such. It is a unique teaching, not found in the other traditions of India, Hinduism and Buddhism. But tracing it to its sources, we get a somewhat different picture. The fundamental Jaina sourcebook, the Tattvarthadhigama-sutra (further described in the March 6 post to the Online Sanskrit Texts Project), addresses this in its second chapter. Of the four English translations known to me, the latest, titled, That Which Is (1994), gives both the Svetambara reading and the Digambara reading. So for verse 13, we have two versions, the second of which is fuller than the first. These are, as translated by Nathmal Tatia:

[Svetambara] "2.13. The earth-bodied, water-bodied and plant-bodied souls are immobile beings."
[Digambara] "2.13. The earth-bodied, water-bodied, fire-bodied, air-bodied and plant-bodied souls are immobile beings."

Nathmal Tatia then summarizes the traditional commentaries on this verse, as follows:

"There are many varieties of earth-bodied, water-bodied and plant-bodied souls. For instance, raw soil or a clod of earth, particles of dust, sand, raw minerals are earth-bodied beings. Snow, ice, rain and so on are water-bodied beings."

This describes the unique Jaina teaching that even particles of earth are living beings, and living beings make up drops of water. The elements themselves are alive. This appears to be the same as the Theosophical teaching. Nathma Tatia then adds a Translator's Note:

"When souls are born with bodies made of material clusters of earth (soil, stone, copper, salt, etc.), they are called 'earth-bodied,' when their bodies are made of water clusters, they are called 'water-bodied' and so on. When these elements are abandoned by their resident souls and assume an inanimate state they are called 'earth-bodies' etc. Another variety, called 'earth-soul' etc., is defined as a soul that is destined to occupy a body made of earth, etc."

To be very clear about this, we may turn to the first English translation of this text, made by J. L. Jaini and published in 1920. He explains that each of the element-bodied souls is considered in three aspects. So, for the earth-bodied, we have:

1. "prithivi-kayika, as embodied in matter; as earth-bodied soul."

2. "prithivi-kaya, as material body, as the body without soul. It is dead earth after the soul has left it."

3. "prithivi-jiva, as an earth-soul, as the soul which is to be embodied in the earth, but is now in vigrahagati or in transition from one existence to another."

It can now be seen that this is not the Theosophical teaching that every atom is a life, and life is inseparable from it. Here, the soul can leave the element such as earth, and leave behind dead earth. The living earth particles are lives called "earth-bodied" (prithivi-kayika). But when the "earth-soul" (prithivi-jiva) leaves the "earth-bodied," so that it is no longer an "earth-bodied" life or soul, what is left behind is the "earth-body" (prithivi-kaya). It is now inanimate earth.

The defining characteristic (laksana) of a soul or jiva was given in the preceding verse 8 as being sentience (upayoga). Sentience is said to be awareness or consciousness. So this is really saying that earth-bodies, etc., may or may not be ensouled and thereby have sentience. This is not necessarily the same as life. The question of whether an atom is alive does not seem to be addressed in the Jaina system, any more than it is in the Hindu or Buddhist systems. What looked like a promising agreement of the Theosophical and Jaina teachings on hylozoism turned out to be somewhat different. Actual hylozoism posits life of all matter, not necessarily sentience or consciousness. Strictly speaking, then, the Jaina system is not hylozoistic. The teaching that caused it to be regarded as hylozoistic does not actually do so. It seems that Theosophy is unique in positing actual hylozoism, that every atom is alive, and life can never be separated from it. The reason for this teaching, as we have seen before, is Theosophy's fundamental doctrine of radical unity (SD 1.120):

"The radical unity of the ultimate essence of each constituent part of compounds in Nature -- from Star to mineral Atom, from the highest Dhyani-Chohan to the smallest infusoria, in the fullest acceptation of the term, and whether applied to the spiritual, intellectual, or physical worlds -- this is the one fundamental law in Occult Science."

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