Great question.  Who cares?  Their existence (or lack thereof) is of no importance.

We need to stand on our own and look for truth in the things that can be proven and not in the realm of useless speculation.

Perhaps if we lived be best lives that we could, loved wisdom for its own sake and treated others as a reflection of ourselves, we wouldn't need to be concerned with such useless matters.

When that day arrives we will regard such silliness as chasing after mahatmas, gurus, masters, etc. the way we react to the idea of eating rocks.

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Very well said Joe. The Core Theosophical Teaching is about UNITY of all beings. The moment one begins to look for truth outside of oneself, UNITY is compromised as a feeling of NON-UNITY is created. Me & Him.

 

Mahatmas themselves talked about this UNITY and then moved to the Hierarchy, Secrets etc. Really confusing.  

Hi, friends!

 You're right, Joe, if we lived the best lives we could, loved wisdom for its own sake and treated everyone as a reflection of ourselves this would not be an useless matter at all. ;-)

 I do dislike the word "masters", yet I know from personal experience that the wise brothers are here, in the nowadays world. Soon their presence will be openly known and their help accepted. Personal experience may be a proof only to the one who experiences, so it's indeed useless for anyone who desires "objective" proof.
 I wonder why people expects objective proof in esoteric business. Honestly, I think it is a misunderstanding. 

 Of course we need to learn to stand ( funnily, I'm training seriously in standing in the Chinese internal arts manner these days... it's very important if you want to show Karate people that Tai Chi is a real martial art, hehehe ;-) and being able to stand and walk "on my own" (oooh I do dislike this expression, too, yet I can't think of any better one now) is a must if anyone wants to able to deal with the wise brothers.  My dear internal arts teacher does help me, but of course he will not do the needed practice instead of me. He is happy because students who practice seriously on their own are not many, and I'm happy because teachers who have the technical knowledge about chi (Chinese term for vital force) are not many, either. Most people teaching Tai Chi have only a superficial knowledge so they teach a kind of slow dance with some mystical ideas to flavour it. Only someone who is deeply engaged with the practice can appreciate the difference, someone who just watches from outside (that is: an objective observer ;-) cannot see it.

Warm blessings to everyone!!! 

Hello Ferran. It has been a long time since I saw a post from you. I am so glad you are back with your perspectives and wisdom.

 

Are you practicing, what some people in India called TREE YOGA- the ultimate in Hath Yoga, which requires the prcatitioner to stand still like a tree for days together?

 Hello C. Anand Kumar! I'm happy to be back, although you make me blush (hehehe Joe may smile when readin' this). Dear friend, I dont practice anything that may be called "ultimate" and of course I don't have any wisdom... I'm not one of the wise brothers !!! ;-)
 I practice the water tradition Taoist internal arts for health reasons, and a useful side effect is the martial side of these arts. The funny thing is that actually the martial side may enhances the healing one if the practitioner is really careful.  Standing is an element in the exercise system, relative stillness and gravity being needed to gain awareness of and improve the alignments of the articulations of the body, from major to minor, gross to subtle. In water tradition we exercise gently but continuously and every element of the practice is related to all others. Careful alignment of the joints and Newton laws make punches stronger hehehe  ;-)

 This is my teacher's website www.vitaarts.com and this, the site of my teacher's teacher www.energyarts.com   and, of course, they are not mahatmas or gurus. 

 I don't know if the energy lines, circuits and points of the Chinese tradition have any correspondence with those of Hath Yoga because I just know the basics from Chinese tradition, which I find really useful. I think that the Taoist fire tradition's intent is similar to Kundalini Yoga... but I'm really happy to be in the water tradition, in which the main energy path goes downwards, just like water (and anything from any heaven ;-) does. 

 The wise brothers, and I mean those individuals often called Masters from the Hierarchy, Mahatmas, etc... are those - few up to now- human beings who have learned about life in this planet, so they are able to co-work with the planet himself in evolution. Anyone who has truly realized the need of learning, because being able to learn is what makes me human, and is engaged in this endless task AND in consequence (this is the esoterical one hehehe ;-) removes the internal blockages and barriers (those between Heart and mind), anyone who is learning because realizes that it is the only chance to diminish suffering, receives the help of those who have already learned.  One day or night, sooner or later, awareness of this fact is realized.
 It was beloved Granddaddy Ramana Maharshi who discovered Heart hidden within Ferran ( as he is an avatar I'm happy to call him "granddaddy".)

Warm blessings to everyone!!!

 

Dear Ferran ,

         The various spots that are in the Chinese tradition , are not connected to Hata Yoga in any way . Just by way of explanation Hata Yoga is useful for people who are more physical and cannot silently control their minds - or still the body . The various poses give them a sense of purpose to sit tight without moving. Once they can sit quiet it is easier for them to quell the mind . It is  a first step . The more exotic of the Asanas or poses have a dual aspect in that the practitioner has to visualize the pose of the animal /bird etc and also concentrate on his breathing whilst maintaining the pose. It is effective in that after a little practice the aspirant learns to sit without fidgeting and can concentrate on just his mind and prana. However in Kunadalini Yoga whose expanded version is Nadi Shastra includes points many of which correspond to the ones mentioned in the Chinese tradition . But these Nadis are the channeld through which the prana flows all over the body . There are 10 pranas associated with the Nadis (Nadi is not nerves as many are wont to believe ) . Nadis are channels through which the Kundalini (or Chi )  flows through in the manifest individuals - And prana is the Sheath (itself subtle) . There are higher conceptions in the Yogic method - During Dream the life force withdraws into the Nadis in the heart and from there it travels in dream through various Nadis and "sees" dreams . The Kutastha or the purusha resides in the heart during this period and is the person experiencing the dream . Now these nadis are many and have names and the dream experience in each nadi is different - different chakras and centres of power signified by lotus (which is seen in meditataion ) are crossroads for the manifested kundalini to pass through. The Nadis in the lower half of the body consisting of seven equal spans are the lower metaphysical worlds - trees animals,and other inanimate things are seen as also frightful shadows and strange figures with grotesque appearances . 

The second approach is through knowledge and pranava upasana

A yogi concieves of his body as the universal self and so his nadis have the ambit relating to his realization . In which case the nadis corresponding to his body extend correspondingly into space . These nadis stretch to various stars and planetary systems and universes - need less to say the kundalini force which underlies the universe is  present in the manifest and can be discerned through its manifestation in the Nadis . They can travel within the nadis in the body in dream but see corresponding sights corresponding to the universal manifestation - like say planetary systems, axis of rotations , nebulae, and other celestial objects, It is here that mathematical symbols and forms can be seen with clarity (or so it is believed) these symbols of mathematical forms denote the limit before the world of Names and Forms vanish and the world becomes only an appearance within oneself. It is a level higher than the world of symbols where one sees Universal Symbols (like sun, moon, starts, fire, planets etc ) But these are mainly from the 5th and 6 th chakras . It is extremely difficult to rise above the 5 th chakra as it is the only chakra which touches the ''Brahmarandra" or through which all three points (Sun,Moon and Susushumna Nadi) Pierces the actual bone . 

I hope I have been helpful - everything I have written can be found in various books. 

Thanks Ferran. Your explanation of the water tradition is amazing. I did not know about it. I wish and hope you are able to master it and remain forever healthy.

Good answer!

That line about eating rock equating to searching for ancient masters is a good one because it says it all in relationship to the quest; however having said that, within the psyche of man  is the addictive unreasonable belief that there is someone out there that can give us the answer we search for.  Of course this belief is pounded into us from birth: go to the expert: THE EXPERTS HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS?  What an oxymoran that is!!!!!

 

I myself have found over the past three decades that it would be unique if you found someone that you could past your knowledge on to; that is not an option - knowledge cannot be past on from one individual or one generation to another.  Yes, you can point out our school systems and home schooling; however, teaching hard core base sciences to someone with a 'careless' attitude is not going to advance that science an iota once he is free of your  dominance.  Examples of this is the masses free from school rarely reads books.  Only about ten percent of the population reads on a regular basis and much of that is reading trashy novels.  The science of math is rarely used outside of a commercial use.  How may people actually own a bible?  Almost everyone does.  Yet, ask how many of that group have actually read it.  You will probably have to take an inch of dust off of it just to remove it from one shelf to another.

 

CG Jung the great psychoanalyst was searching for the reasons that man is incapable of passing on his knowledge  from one generation to another - he died before he could come to an concrete conclusions.

 

I believe that the search for God: eternal spiritual laws, is a one on one relationship with the universe.  That universe is a jealous god and will not have any other gods before it.

 

The so-called ancient masters must have realized the fruitlessness of educating the masses into the esoteric tradition because they knew how difficult the task of learning it was.  So they did the next best thing and gave  to us  their wisdom and knowledge of the transcendent in their esoteric literature, art and monuments and then disappeared into oblivion.

 

If you read the New Testament closely you will see Christ was constantly setting an example: "give not that which is holy onto dogs less they turn and rend you, rather, be wise as serpents and harmless as doves." and again he would only bring some of his disciples into the mountain, which is symbolic to high metaphysical though.

eastern: Innocent as cloves.

western: innocent as doves.

innocent's structure is not based in motive.

Dear William ,

One of the main errors of the human intellect (which is popularly associated with knowledge) is that , it is dependent on proofs which arise as a result of evidences . The knowledge that you are referring to is knowledge which is transitory . In other words if there is no evidence - then there is no proof that a thing will constitute knowledge . It is a common failing of Scientists and the common people to reach such a conclusion . In such cases one has to enquire into why are such evidences so important to the human psyche - the emphatic answer is that - It is because they are a matter of perception and if not based on perception - they are based on authority . 

 The question that is pertinent here is - in both the above cases it is a matter of experiencing by a particular individual to his satisfaction (or credulity) that is important , IT is easily concluded that it is the person or individual who is concerned that decides what is knowledge and accepts it into his memory . Anything based on evidence either experienced or heard or said or read is liable to change since they are "conclusions'' arising from the function of the senses. Now there is another side to knowledge - though we consider all such manifest knowledge as knowledge proper - the ancients considered such knowledge as "secondary knowledge''. Primary knowledge or knowledge that was eternal constituted the individual apprehending evidential knowledge . 

A man cannot deny that he exists , and as he was the person apprehending "evidential knowledge'' - he was considered to be Knowledge Itself . Unlike in Argumentative Philosophy they considered Knower and Knowledge (Eternal Knowledge) to be the same ie. Eternal Knowledge or primary knowledge . Whilst manifest knowledge was Secondary Knowledge and "time bound'' all knowledge gained from secondary sources would be of no use or be wiped out on the death of a person , On the other hand they also determined that there was a way in which 

"Non Evidential Knowledge" could be gained by looking inwards . This knowledge was specific to the individual in question and so would not be open to another unless he followed the correct approach. This knowledge was also superior in that the next person who realized also would not have an experience any different from that of the first person unlike secondary knowledge which would give rise to different experiencing of the same object. 

Anything experienced internally on the more subtler levels of human existence required that all instruments be forsaken - It was and is and will always be a prerequisite - since the person in the waking state is not the experiencer in the dreaming state and as also in the sleeping state . In the state of deep sleep we deny the existence of Knower, knowing and known but never of Knowledge as we wake up and say that "I slept well , I did not know a thing " - Who is the person who says so ? It is none other than the waking person who did not have an existence in the sleeping state - how does he know on waking whether he slept well and there was nothing ? - It is only from his memory it is an act of remembering - and so it is known that the person was existing in the state of deep sleep as otherwise he would not remember it on waking - yet he denies his existence - the inference is that he is not either the physical body nor the astral body - he is a witness to himself in deep sleep .

 It is also my considered opinion that knowledge can be transmitted from one person to another . I will not go into the particulars but  I can venture an Idea - it can be done through the Ego as it is subtler than the intellect .If I were to stand in your ego I would be able to transmit in toto my knowledge to you, or specific parts of my knowledge , but you would only apprehend it as "coming from yourself'' and not from me .

Dear Hari Menon:

Your post is well written from an exoteric point of view and it fits well within the perimeters of the realm of the Animal Envoy: meaning the mundane materialistic realm of thought.  But that is as far as it goes.  In the mundane realm of thought you can go to the ends of the world of thought and in the end there is a precipice and beyond that an infinite gulf of nothingness.

Selfknowledge is not demonstrable as you pointed out - so I will not discuss that.

I believe in demonstrable evidence, for me, there is no other.  I am not the first and I will not be the last to discover the esoteric science codified to ancient knowledge.  There are others in the infinite future like myself will discover this esoteric science in a world that knows nothing of it.  This knowledge is not humanly conceived; rather, it is a direct missive from the transcendent: what humans call God.  This knowledge will not pass away with my demise because it is the teachings of Christ.  And Christ said His word would never pass away.

If the earth was to explore into umteen trillions of parts and humanity erase from existence God will start it all up again in a nanosecond and humanity would rediscover this same esoteric science: Christ's teachings.  Whether it is cloak in Taoism, Buddhaism, Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism or what ever the esoteric science is eternal.

This knowledge has nothing to do with the mundane world; therefore, humanity hasnot the access that would allow it to destroy it.

The entire esoteric science is contained within the MONAD (one), which represents the infinity of God's spiritual creation.  From the MONAD comes the spiritual teachings codified to the world's religious literature. This science cannot change it is immutable.  The mythology that cloths the mythos that codifies the esoteric science to the world literature may change but not the esoteric science itself.  This is why there are myriad forms of religion and artforms around the world.

You say that this esoteric science can be taught and I beg to differ.  Only God can teach it to the soul/psyche and that is only under the strick mandate that the indiviual truly desires it and not merely giving lip service to the idea.

You know as well as I do that there are drug addicts and alcoholics that deperatedly tried to rid themselves of their additions and died in their cups because their desire was not strong enough to stop them from taking the drug of choice.  The DESIRE for knowledge of God has to be stronger than that.  The Zodiac cannot move without that DESIRE mandating it to do so.

The only way that this esoteric science changes is when humanity forget the science altogether and then you get what the newspapers of the day report: utter social chaos where the government is out of its depth.

Yes, I can show you how the ancient's did it but as you pointed out it will be up to you to validate it to have the same experience; however, the real evidence is seeing yourself walking in the world within the matrix that God has sent down to the Children of Adam as the Garden of Eden and until you see this SOLOMON'S TEMPLE all else is theory.  No one will believe it is the work of the divine until they see in their own soul/psyche Solomon's Temple.

 

Practice them all!

IF we are a QUARTETE of stuff (body-emotions-mind-spirit etc) so

we have to PRACTICE THEM ALL (developement of body-emotions-mind-spirit etc

So THEN

If the MASTERS are ,well, MASTERS! they will SEE U and get in touch of you and so on.

As someone said "By their work you will know them" .... :O

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