I am curious about why Adam and Eve disobeyed God after they walked and talked to him and knew he created them? The first commandment in the bible was not to eat of the tree of knowledge, being it was the knowledge of good and evil. I would venture to say Sin is a human action to choose either good or bad. But if the person does not know the difference between them they cannot sin.

A baby is innocent until it accepts that knowledge. I understand the human condition because it makes perfect sense (to me). There are coincidences from sin. I am also confused with the words perfect and divine concerning the human being. Am I looking at this point from the wrong perspective? Thoughts please. Paul

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Continuance of the human factor. 

Why did the angels in heaven that fell with Satan believe Satan over God as well as Adam and Eve? It has been mentioned that Satan would not bow down to humans. Did Satan know about Jesus and Gods plan to save mankind through John 3:16? Do the angels use swords when in a battle? What weapons did they use in the battle with Satan? If the spirit cannot die how did God overcome them? I am beginning to see the words (faith and love) as truths to salvation by (belief) and choice. It would seem the word (belief) is a strong and overpowering word if used (spiritually). Thoughts please? Paul 

In a way I am writing a paper on this but I am not using terminology like good and evil.

The New Testament word 'sin' means 'false belief' it has nothing to do with civil or penal laws and/or breaking the rules and/or regulations of parents and/or society.  That is a big mistake most of us make believing all of these materialistic control systems have to do with violating the laws of God.  God has nothing to do with the material world.

A baby is educated out of its spiritual state of existence (Orenda): THAT IS ORIGINAL SIN because the baby is being taught the ways of the world in contrast to depending solely upon God.  In every sense as you see the baby grow to maturity you are actually seeing Satan falling from heaven.  How else is the baby to be educated?  Now what does it do to regain that state of Orenda?

I have seen people that were Alcoholics sober up and gain a spiritual life: some have entered into a state of Orenda; however, some of them go back out drinking: this is the sin against the Holy Spirit (Orenda) and believe it or not those that go back out drinking after obtaining the state of Orenda never sober up again: a worse state had come upon them.

The alcoholic that sobers up sins against YAHWEH not the Holy Spirit: this is the same thing that Adam and Eve did: sin against Yahweh.  Alcoholism to the alcoholic is the Garden of Eden and the liquor is their God (Yahweh) and Yahweh demand that his commandment be obeyed: “thou shalt drink that liquor and the day you do not you shalt surely sober up and be cast into that emptiness”.

William -

that actually does help.

However, I am not familiar with the term Orenda, but it makes sense. A google search seemed to relate it back to American Indians. That is unlikely here, I would think.

so - is it a Hebrew word, or other? if there is a definition you can give - that would be nice.

 

Also, your quote:

"A baby is educated out of its spiritual state of existence (Orenda): THAT IS ORIGINAL SIN because the baby is being taught the ways of the world in contrast to depending solely upon God.  In every sense as you see the baby grow to maturity you are actually seeing Satan falling from heaven.  How else is the baby to be educated?  Now what does it do to regain that state of Orenda?"

 

The quote below (John 3:16) seems relevant but is it?

Orenda and Christ are related  - how?           might be a red herring.

John 3:16  (NRSV)

“For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not perish but may have eternal life."

 

Hi William, I never heard of the state of "Orenda" so could you maybe elaborate on this some more because it seem like it is interesting? Also, because I am just curious to know about it since I have just now learned about it and stuff too. 

I can tell you about the state of Orenda (Christian call it the Holy Spirit) about it but I cannot explain it.  It is something that you have to do on your own.  What can be discerned from reason and logic is the end of human knowledge but it can only hypothesize what is beyond human knowledge.  Orenda is living in FAITH.  People say they have faith but they really don't.  What they have is belief.  If is a rare individual that can cross over.  It is what the New Testament calls the RAPTURE.  Two people working side by side one is taken the other isn't.  It is not that the physical human being is taken it is their psyche going into a state of being with the Holy Spirit (soul): a state of entering the Garden of Eden where the worries of the world no longer bother that individual.

Hi William, okay fair enough. Thank you for explaining what Orenda is a little bit more to my question. I am still very curious about the entire thing so I guess I can do some investigating in my own time through using Google. This subject just seem very interesting to me becuase it like almost turns everything I already know in my faith upside down, so now I am very consciouslly curious of this whole subject matter. And yet the best is yet to come! =) 

Yes, Orenda does refer to the America Indian spiritual state of being, as the Christian call it the Holy Spirit, Hindus call it Nirvana and the Chinese call it Tao.  I wrote a paper on Serpent Mound and I began using the word Orenda interchangeable with the Holy Spirit.

Your quoting John 3:16 has much more of a profound meaning than is thought of in the mainstream.  When I finish that paper I am working on I will start a blog here linking that paper to it.  It has to do with understanding how the universe was created.  So I will not try to answer that now; however, I will state that what most Christians think of as the Christian trinity (GOD): the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is actually the tripartite soul.  The one true God cannot be spoke of.  This God: I am that I am (that Moses saw in the burning bush) is the existence of the higher spiritual SELF.  This God cannot be named.

What actually can be mathematically demonstrated in addition to referencing the bible, Catholicism great artworks and Jungian Psychology is that the SELF splits into opposites creating the empyrean and the material creation.  What Christian think of as Hell, Purgatory and Paradise are three state of mortal or spiritual life on earth.  In other words man can reenter the Garden of Eden in this lifetime and still live on this earth.  In fact there is no other way of experience these realms.

The scientists and physicists are wrong.  The first chapter of Genesis does give a detail account of just how the material and spiritual universes were created: they are blind and do not see it.

William,
Excellent answer. But if the baby is so called innocent, (because it does not know how to or believe in sin, then how come it sins)? (I will agree the world will educate the child but when the child understands sin he/she still has not sinned until he/sin chooses to)? I do believe a disobeyed action(free believed will) is by blind belief. Is the word sin associated to/or with disobedience? Paul

Disobedience as Paul puts it would be in relationship to God's laws.  As you pointed out the baby cannot possibly know that it is sinning.  This is why original sin is said to come down from Adam and Eve.   The child will have to grow up and literally go against all that his parents, society mores and religion has taught it in order for that adult to get back into a spiritual state of being.  This is something that only God can teach you.  It is not something that anybody in the material would can teach you.

Yes, someone can tell you how they did it and you can read and study dozens of people that have accomplished it but unless the initiate does the work himself he will have absolutely no idea what these other mystics are talking about.

Matthew 18:3

and said, “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

so, the quote above rather makes sense in this light, if I understand correctly?

Paul --> I am also confused with the words perfect and divine concerning the human being. Am I looking at this point from the wrong perspective?

I think it is rather keeping these terms in perspective with the newborn and God, Born Divine and Perfect with respect to God and God's Laws is probably the key. Perfect w.r.t. lack of sin, no flaws; Divine because they are at the point where Life is Divine in its first existence in its closeness to God yet with a spiritual body simultaneously and sinless as well.

I am trying to get this right. It may be quite different from my somewhat naïve viewpoint.

 

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