Hi

I´m wondering as to how others here see organ transplantation especially considering the methods for obtaining ("harvesting") organs and the definition of "brain death"

As modern science is in denial of much especially as to what life really is, what sleep really is and what death and the dying process actually entails...

after seeing the information here....

http://www.initiative-kao.de/kao-english.html

One can only begin to have seriously serious doubts about the current practice and the practical application of that judicial masterpiece - the definition of "brain dead"-, and as anyone, anytime, anywhere can be affected, of paramount relevance to all...

Apologies if this has been covered in the forum before.

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Dear SS ,

          You have to have a healthy disrespect for  science as also the judicial responses that evolve at various points in the history of the world that have arisen due to mans capacity to reason without understanding that the human intellect is an almost infinite storehouse of errors handed down through the ages.  As for the phenomenon of sleep - any research will only lead to more erroneous results as in the state of  deep sleep the victims Mind , Intellect and all "Faculties'' will be  missing .Might seem hilarious even to think so , but it is the truth and an ascertained fact open to experience to everyone day in and day out . The brain like the physical body is an organic entity having no consciousness of its own and with the death of a person is equally dead . It is helpful to the extent of manifesting subtler movements of mind and intellect and energy just as an electric fan or light or any other appliance would manifest electricity into its constituent result or function. 

        What is strangely humorous is that medical sciences in their days of nascence evolved through such "observations ' and surmises and now have attained to a peculiar position wherein you would be astonished to find that 98% of doctors and people would visualize the brain when you mention the word intellect !

I read the story in your link to initiative-kao.de


Taking the organ before the patient is dead is rather a myth.

see:

Organ Donor Myths

in particular:

Myth: Maybe I won't really be dead when they sign my death certificate.
Fact: Although it's a popular topic in the tabloids, in reality, people don't start to wiggle their toes after they're declared dead. In fact, people who have agreed to organ donation are given more tests (at no charge to their families) to determine that they're truly dead than are those who haven't agreed to organ donation.
 

so: you are dead before they remove the organ. They double check it.

Many thanks for your views thus far....

something from the German Theosophists on this...

http://theosophische-gesellschaft.org/N708/organtransplantation-tei...

http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/archive/ldn/1990/22/9022604
http://antioligarch.wordpress.com/2011/07/13/%E2%80%98brain-dead%E2...

http://www.haaretz.com/news/ultra-orthodox-community-issues-anti-or...
Ultra-Orthodox community issues anti-organ donor cards

Sources in ultra-Orthodox community: Organ donation cards are a method of stealing organs from helpless people.
"life card"

That is a good question to ponder about a while. This is what I would say:

Stem cells can be used to develop organs. That means they seem to be the vehicles of animal monads, but one sub-plane below that sort of animal monads that can grow a complete human body.

(Unless I am mistaken and a complete human body can be grown out of a stem cell but so far I did not find any evidence for that).

If that is so then there is an animal ego connected to the growing organ. Actually it is an animal soul ruled by an ego. This ego within its soul is in a 'cell' state as long the cell is just a cell but wakes to 'organ' activity when the organ is grown. In this case it is more comparable to the sort of animals that we are used to.

We should take into account that the special animal monad that is karmically attracted in order to grow an original organ is in a more or less harmonic swing within the stream of consciousness that allows it to perform its duty. The body however reflects the karmic conditions of the inhabitant, with a strong dominance on human thought. Therefore it is the question whether the mere exchange of one animal monad against another one (including their respective bodies) will improve the karmic path of that reincarnating human ego to the better on the long term.

In the case the stem cell is generated from an embryo there is also a human ego involved. It is still in a very latent state but it is obviously there, waiting for the embryo to grow to a human and be born. Again here one would consider the karmic consequences for all participants. (That is - the patient, the old organ, the entities linked with the embryo, the doctors etc. . . . that would be quite an analysis).

Certainly there should be quite a difference whether the stem cells are activated cells of the own body or generated from frozen embryo brothers of the patient. One includes a manipulation of the karmic path of an animal-like being, the other the manipulation of a human being. Both will have their karmic consequences, for sure.

In any of these cases regarding the pros and cons on the long term including reincarnation and karma will certainly lead to a different point of view than if we neglect karma and regard death as finite. Then the preparation of the body for a longer life would be the first priority. My own priorites however would be much different.

BTW and regarding the above line of thought: I am still not certain what it really means that any organ can be grown of a stem cell. Would it eventually be possible to grow a complete human out of one stem cell at some time? Then this would change the argument. Perhaps somebody knowledgeable here could chime in.

Joe , It is quite ok , or so I think as long as it is life enhancing and there is some element of discrimination and as long as different commercial lobbies who may spot an opportunity and pervert it for their crazy theories and paranoia , which not to say the least would be the Army and Government who are bound to come up with ideas of use of a more violent nature . Rights groups are useless in such situations - they inevitably like the cops in movies appear after the passing of the incident !!
Oh me oh my , you would get a chunk of meat looking like a human being (possibly) in all respects - but it would not be animated or have reasoning or intelligence - maybe it can be used as a spare for using organs from it - you wouldn't even get a zombie (I guess Zombies move under their own impetus ?). As is the science so will be the man .Since the aim is to grow organ parts - not the whole composite it would not succeed to a large extent - I mean a human body as such sentient or not .

"you would get a chunk of meat looking like a human being (possibly) in all respects - but it would not be animated or have reasoning or intelligence - maybe it can be used as a spare for using organs from it"

Hari, that is more or less what people think ... however as a Theosophist I think different. See, one of the most fundamental principles of Theosophy is that everything is alive in nature which means there is nothing dead in the sense of an absolute death. Of course beings die but that is a breakup of the form while the inner content is drawn back. However this form is not dead in the conventional sense either because it itself consists of living beings that now go their own way. This means our world is incredibly full of life, really really stuffed with it, under every stone, in every corner, everywhere.

Now life is inseparately connected with consciousness. Actually they are the same. What sense would it make to anything that lives if it would not strive for something or feel something? So in a way we can say that the world consists of consciousness, through and through, of consciously living beings. There is nothing else.

However not every consciousness is the same and therefore not every living being is the same. Well, basically they are, because in their core, in their heart they all are pure consciousness or what we call divine. But that divinity or pure consciousness is more or less crystallized, it is bound, it does not flow freely, and this causes what we perceive as matter.

So - what is a stem cell? It is a living being. It has a consciousness of its own, it strives, it feels in its own way. It has the potential in it to unfold this consciousness (that is already in it), and if it does that again and again for aeons it can some day be a human being, and even be more than this and evolve to a divine being. That is because inside of it it is already divine, however this divinity is bound and fettered in a way that does not allow it to show outside what it inside already is.

What is an organ? It is a living being likewise. It can bring out more to the outside of what it has inside, and therefore it has a quite evolved body (which is a reflection of higher bodies or souls that are likewise evolved) and therefore be in the ability to serve as a part an animal or human body.

Now what is wrong with exchanging organs from one body to another one if they are all living entities? This is what happens: In the old body the organ was like an animal in a herd, and it knew where it belonged. It was karmically connected to the others in its herd. Now we take it an put it into an environment (a different herd) that is so adverse that it begins to fight claws and teeth against everybody around it. That is real - a transplanted organ tries to kill the body of the receptor and likewise the receptor tries to kill it. They all know it should not be there and try their best to end this state. There are many more problems linked with organ transplantation but I'll stop here for the moment.

The main point is that a stem cell is a living being and it has its own life, consciousness and its karmic path. Same is true for an organ. Which level this conscousness is, and whether it currently in an active or more passive state, that is different question. Also incarnation possibilities for human egos are quite sought for these days and every opportunity is used. In any case nothing in the world is really dull or inanimated, but amply growing life - and therefore conscousness - is everywhere.

I should add that if we want to get deeper into this problem from a theosophical point of view then a lot more and complicated thoughts would need to be involved. Questions about the hierarchical constitution of man, animals, plants, different states of beings depending on cycles, after-death states, cosmic powers, and more.

However as important as these more technical aspects are we would miss the mark if we would loose out of sight the most important one (imho): the appreciation for the beings that we are dealing with here, beings that serve us impersonally and are of the same essence that we are. They are our children in a way - not that we created them out of nothing which is not possible (except we understand that in the spiritual sense of Sunyata which is the real origin of all) but we have born them - and not just for the first time in this life -, and since their being is a part of our being we are responsible for each of them.

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