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Permalink Reply by Hari Menon on October 21, 2012 at 3:57am

Dear Jessica ,

    There are quite a lot of things in your post and it touches on a variety of aspects that are within the Intellect . My outlook is fairly simple We as human beings choose to believe what we want to believe and tend towards the more physical kind of reasoning when we look for supporting evidences in favour of an experience we may have had .Whereas what we call an experience is the coming to know of a thing after it has passed. So it is the effect that we are analyzing and it is a fact of reasoning that the Cause will be more subtler than the effect and would hold the knowledge of the effect . Now the question is why is the action of thinking and reason so important to human beings ? . It is because if a man does not have a good explanation for an effect his mind and intellect will roam searching for a suitable answer which once got would put a stop to that particular thinking process and he gets peace. On the other hand if the reasoning is not appropriate then the doubt would revisit at intervals and try to patch up the doubt by a merging of different ideas - this is something to be prevented . Since an opinion over time becomes a belief and then it becomes faith - none of these are the truth , So we have to examine ourselves as to whether a conclusion to a doubt or question was got by the interpolation of a n opinion or belief or faith . If an opinion , belief or faith we have to examine how it evolved into such a hardened state within us , and eliminate them completely . Then we have to cogitate on the so called experience or effect that we have undergone, or observed and have a firm Idea that it is the cause that is being investigated in order that the experience is properly reasoned out and knowledge gained so that everything comes to a rest . This is the same with desires and actions relating to them - suppose I have an overwhelming desire to have a companion of the opposite sex , then to dissipate in dream this desire is a very difficult task (nevertheless it can be done - though it may seem improbable to a listener )  . The easier way would be to gratify oneself thorough action and then a slow diffidence sets in to the desire . It is the same way with thoughts - which is why the Greeks used to say ''The Good man dreams of what the bad man does". 

It is the same with knowledge also - one becomes so thirsty for knowledge that one sees it everywhere and there is no stopping the process - what one has to learn is the more difficult process of being indifferent to gathering knowledge and how to stop the gathering of information thus eliminating the desire for knowledge .  One should know for certain that for every man living on earth if one is diffident to knowledge , if one is diffident to the feeling that reading the news paper , or watching the TV or other things if forsaken would lead one to a feeling of being left behind in the world , or the coming to know of various scientific developments and words associated with newer findings leave you helplessly in need for knowledge of all those and more- do not worry - Only that knowledge which is required by you will come to you (this of the knowledge that is not yet gained by you ) and anything not required by you will drop off (this of the knowledge that you have already gained). 

In any case whatever knowledge or experience comes to a person - will be interpreted by him/her according to his/ her prevailing knowledge and nature - it is forgone that the knowledge that you or I have will be tainted by our very natures which we believe to be us. So we have to surmount our individual nature and also the nature imposed upon us by society and household - freedom and cleanliness in the intellect and mind is required before the cause is investigated . Vitiated knowledge is no knowledge . 

It is easy to say and understand the fact that one is not the body - the question is do we really behave honestly to ourselves in our thoughts ?. Because having this same approach in the mind is a pre requisite for excellent and unsullied metaphysical experiences - now how do we know to the extent that we are practising and being clean in our minds and intellect ? It is the quality of the images that come to our mind on hearing, seeing or reading  or saying something that is a sure indicator of our mind and intellect. The metaphysical or 'mental' (to be exact) does not possess a physical body as we have - in consequence there is no age or illness as we have , limbs are not there and any being there has no physical action . Running, walking, talking, eating  and sleeping are not there . Sex , lust or the more physical of actions are not there like killing or abusing - if our thoughts and feelings reflect these they behave elemental and reflect the very same feelings and thoughts or produce images befitting our thoughts - and if correctly understood as our own thoughts and feelings represented to us we would have to interpret them as such - the elements are not bothered of Socrates, Shankara,Blavatsky,Vivekanada or any one born however great they may have been - they are bothered that the mind and intellect does not reflect their state of existence - and so they will it back EXACTLY as they have perceieved your feeling and thoughts in ordr that we recognize ourselves in our own thoughts and not another , And correct the situation till the transmission of knowledge becomes unfettered . They reflect back at the mental level two things ''YOU'' and "I AM'' . One has to conduct oneself with dignity and cleanliness at those levels - none of the sciences that we subscribe to or are known by us are valid or relevant for the elementals - they have a hazy understanding that the sciences are something knowledge based - but when they reflect back the understood knowledge - we are so incapable of deciphering it as we look at our own knowledge and try to reconcile the irreconcilable . It is all light, colour and movement only in the mental and in the intellect it is devoid of images,light, colour or movement and only knowledge is there . So when one ratiocinates on things or theorize one should not draw images, lines or pictures for these are belonging to the mental and not recognized by the intellect . Words have 3 things in them as also each letter Food,Water and Energy as encapsulated by Air and Heat . This is the back drop for thoughts Light,Colour and movement . Knowledge is colourless. The mind consists of food - it is the essence of the food that we eat - the hardest part in any food that we eat becomes earth(and its varients) , the medium becomes water(and its varients) and the finest becomes mind . It is the medium part that becomes the phelgm, mucous, blood,saliva etc . and the grossest become muscles,marrow,meat etc. Even fat is considered medium . Semen in a man and its corresponding in a woman is the gross representation of the vital fluid which is the earth, water combination . this is also considered medium only . It is the finest part that goes to make up the mind - and if a man is so weak because he has not had food he cannot even think - he can think properly only if he eats food . It is verifiable .... stopping

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ModeratorPermalink Reply by John on October 5, 2012 at 1:01pm

Hi Hari -
if you take a fundamental piece of abstract information and destroy it - you release a specified amount of energy.  (always the same minimum amount).

It makes no difference what the abstract information consists of. If you want the information to be only in consciousness, go for it. It does not matter.

The issue is opening theosophists to new thinking.

There are a few brave theosophists attempting to open theosophists to new thinking.

John

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Permalink Reply by Hari Menon on October 14, 2012 at 12:45am

Dear John,

 I whole heartedly agree with you when you state that "The issue is opening theosophists to new thinking.'" in this forum as Joe has made me understand and in keeping with the spirit I too believe that we are all travellers and this site helps people to have an expanded vision much as a weary traveller is refreshed by water we not just make esoteric statements we have to help each person with our individual knowledge and a person takes what is helpful and leaves the rest . No dogma or no theory is impinged upon or imposed upon anyone - for then we take away their freedom or their basic right to think freely and correctly , we deny them knowledge which is the most evil of virtues.

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ModeratorPermalink Reply by John on October 14, 2012 at 8:04pm

I remember reading an article in the American Journal of Physics where Dr. Mermin was discussing the Great Embarrassment in Physics... i.e. that no one knows what Quantum Mechanics means and everyone has their own interpretation. Especially embarrassing since QM is almost 100 years old.

e.g. The wave function is a mess of complex numbers (i.e. uses. i * i = -1,  imaginary numbers) and it inherently cannot be measured. One does not have a meter-stick that can read/show  i meters. or a Volt meter that reads #Volts = i . That critter is what the physics is "done" on (calculated). It is a pure mental construct.  That is what exists. That is what physics works with and calculates.

Mermin's major point was that trying to deal with Consciousness is a heck of a lot harder. (Consciousness is an active and hot topic in physics). His point was that maybe a Relational QM approach, where correlations are manipulated in QM and what "the That" is which one is correlating is inherently always unknown. QM is only a physics of correlations (synchronicity e.g.) which say nothing at all about what a neutron, electron, proton etc. actually "are". QM is mute on those issues. Maybe if they could accept "that", then an approach to consciousness might have some hope to move forward on.  They should get the cart behind the horses, as is sometimes said.

I think he is right. Take the QM books, then shake all the explanatory words out of it. The Math that is left is correct. Trying to explain what the Math means is a waste of time/impossible (the Math works. stop).

So - the point is that the beginning premise of this whole thread is rather naive.....  actually it can be argued as only a sales pitch for some authors and to also continue some Myth of Science the authors (brave souls) want to promote.

I really try not to comment much here on this forum thread. The Science Group I hold to higher standards.

Well, regardless - we will go forward.

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ModeratorPermalink Reply by John on October 15, 2012 at 2:23am

well, to get a sane overview - one could look at Consciousness

The bottom of the page has a huge Bibliography. The authors also have books out.

The more interesting link from that page (for this thread/forum) is:

Quantum Approaches to Consciousness

Be sure to look at the Bibliographies. The very bottom of the page has links to other pages.One needs to check those out.

Note: you will see all sides of the arguments in those links. hence - several will be the side of the argument that is NOT the one you want. Check Amazon for books, reviews etc these authors have written. They have quite a range. (Great to Bad).)

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Permalink Reply by Hari Menon on October 15, 2012 at 5:12am

Dear John ,

        Have done so , all said and done how would you explain this very simple thing.

 Answer to the disciple : " Just as people regard their bodies as themselves and that they (bodies) know things , so ,they speak of the intellect having the agency in producing knowledge , and of the Self (as being its seat).

Deluded by the modifications of the intellect which appears (owing to the mutual superimposition of the Self and the intellect ) to be conscious and are created , the argumentative philosophers say that knowledge is produced .

Therefore the word 'knows' etc , the corresponding modifications of the mind and their memory are possible on account of the indiscrimination regarding the Self,the intellect and the reflection of the Self in it ''

                             - Ancient literature 

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ModeratorPermalink Reply by John on October 15, 2012 at 10:23pm

Note - My main point in all of this, is that Conscious is alive in academia. It is not hidden/censored. Also -- it is a hot topic since direct experimental results are now obtainable.The spooky stuff is correct. That is a hard pill to swallow by a Materialist. There is always some odd chance to get around the experiments, but the harder they (Materialists) try,  the greater their fall.

==========================================

Back to your question ---

Only a fool would try to improve on Shankaracharya ...

That must mean I'm qualified. <G>

The Intellect, resting in self, does not produce knowledge.
The combination of Intellect and Self may form a false belief that Mind has created knowledge or Consciousness as the superposition of Intellect and the Self.
Without proper discrimination, the Intellect and Self may reflect in Mind to falsely see the Intellect and Self as true Mind and/or Consciousness.

(Note: it pays to understand the physics of Image formations)

ok. I slaughtered the original......  (as expected)

Your turn !!

John.

======================

All This is That, All That is This.

or...

"That which is above is like to that which is below and that which is below is like to that which is above, to accomplish the miracles of (the) one thing" .

In any case the Student must obtain the understanding through their own effort.

exactly as done in Abstract Mathematics. The student must ultimately discover it from within their own mind.

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Permalink Reply by Hari Menon on October 15, 2012 at 11:22pm

So be it .

    

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ModeratorPermalink Reply by John on October 19, 2012 at 12:56pm

I have put two General News feeds into the Science Group. One is from AAAS (Am. Assoc. for the Adv. of Science (aaas.org)

The other is a Physics general news feed from APS (Am. Phy. Soc.)

Both are diverse. I expect they will cover this topic, as well as the broader ones.

So far it seems to be working.

However - the update is slow.  I'm watching it, and will fix as needed.

The US Army using 3D printing with labs flown in by helicopter would have been missed by myself if I had not checked the Science Group's feeds. I think the broader view may be better. It should also cover the items discussed here.

John

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