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Permalink Reply by Martin Euser on March 25, 2011 at 6:32am

'planes' can be called spheres of energy, energy-fields where one can tune into, thus producing states of consciousness. This is a subjective thing: experience! We experience energy (qualities) all of the time.

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Permalink Reply by Michael A. Williams on March 25, 2011 at 10:31am

I have to take issue with the proposition above:

"We ought to understand that natural selection is the means by which evolution operates. Of course this is random, notwithstanding intelligent design."

That evolution operates via "randomness" is certainly a mainstream tenet of reductionist/materialist science, but by no means the final word.  That's the great "god" of the materialists, "randomness" that they fall back on to explain everything. No one who takes a metaphysical/spiritual view, no matter which one, can accept that the universe and that life itself on this planet came about through blind forces operating randomly.

I could parade all manner of quotes from prominent thinkers repudiating the theory of randomess, and the reasoning behind it, but I don't have the time right now. 

Throughout history there's been two competing worldview paradigms. One, that Mind/Consciousness creates matter(Idealism) and, two, that Matter creates Mind/Consciousness(Materialism). 

Peter, you seems to be taking the materialist view. How do you reconcile your spirituality with this?

I'll have some comments on the development of A.I. at another time.

As far as Joe and Martin's objection to the use of the word "plane," (and for better or worse, we're stuck with that for awhile), I like the use of "energy-fields", or also "vibratory spheres."

It's true, there's an infinite number of vibratory fields/spheres/planes operating in and around us at the same time/space, as it were. I'm doubting if any A.I. could have any direct experience of these, but only a programed knowledge of them, if the programmers choose to download it into the hard drive data base.

 

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Permalink Reply by Michael A. Williams on March 25, 2011 at 2:12pm

Thanks, Peter, for your kind reply. I understand your position better now, and see we are are on the same general page. I'm still in the camp, though, that says there is more behind what is normally categorized as "random," it's just that we can't discern it at this time. But, I won't belabor the point.

It's understandable, that under a teaching situation, where certain course requirement have to be met, you would have to hold back on your full views on evolution.

As regards many dimensions and/or parallel worlds(some use the terms interchangeably, others say they're different), quantum physics comes to the rescue. The "many worlds" theory is gaining ground even among mainstream physicists, and Stephen Hawking in his latest book postuates that at the "big bang" an infinite number of universes were created, each with different laws of physics. Although, most would only admit them as mathamatical probabilities, not actualities that can be experienced, as metaphysical/occult schools of thought would.

I don't know if we're "going home" spiritually or evolving "upward" spiritually. It may be both, or a combination of the two.

It seems that the present A.I. sophisticated computers are really just souped up parrot brains. Such as "Watson," who recently won on Jeopardy. They are quite advanced Turning machines, capable of doing complex memory and logical operations on symbols and higher math problems in rapid time. But, there's no understanding of the real meaning of what they're regurgitating.

There's a long stretch, really a quantum leap, to having self-awareness.  Even with a supposed self awareness, will they ever have psychic abilities or even spiritual insights, or be able to have "out-of-body" (in their case "out-of-machine") experiences?

It's doubtful, but we'll see. I'm more concerned with the scientists and engineers who are working on these A.I. singularity projects. Who are they? Where are they coming from, philosophically, metaphysically/spiritually(if at all) and ethically and morally? That's were the problems will arise, not so much with the A.I. projects.

 

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Permalink Reply by Michael A. Williams on March 25, 2011 at 5:55pm

I hope your health is better, Peter, and your back in top shape.

A recent forum here was on "What Did Blavatsky miss?" and that's one area I forgot to bring up: Health. There was little, if any, emphasis on physical health back then in the Western metaphysical/occult community. She certainly had her personal health problems and that may account for why she steered away from the subject.

That said, it's good you brought up epistemology, how we know what we know, though that's something for another forum. Briefly, beliefs are powerful, for positive or negative,  but there is a "direct knowing," sort of an "intuitive insight" that's can trump mere beliefs.  But, a sincere open mindedness is always in order. What you said reminds me of a quote by Gandhi that's pertinent:

"It's always good to keep in mind that the strongest among us may weaken, and the wisest err."

Fanaticism and zealotry is something I do my best to avoid. Now, if only the reductionist/materialists would take more heed of this. Certainly, the one's working on A.I. Singularity projects need to be watched carefully for any signs of this. 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

 

Peter O'Lalor said:

Thank you Michael,

      I've worked hard at not being obtuse, (as one professor asked if I was Intentionally being, at the time I did not understand the meaning).  Thank you for the opportunity to "give it another shot." :-)

      If you go to my website I have under the menu on the right Science in the News. There you will discover an article from the BBC Science that proves activity before the Big Bang and yet may even herald, many big bangs, which in my book I compare to the Pralaya or inhalation and exhalation of Brahma. See my website here: http://www.wix.com/polalor/physics_shrouded_in_mist

      I don't know if we are we say "going home" spiritually or evolving "upward" spiritually. After not being allowed to finish High School at a seminary so I could be a Franciscan Friar Missionary; I ran away from home. A lot of death had occurred, and the drama and trauma; found me searching the worlds religions in their primary resources. Then I found Isis Unveiled. I was predisposed to digest everything; now much is ingrained upon me and further resources and experiences are all part of my belief system. So what do I know? Not much methinks; for I stand on the shoulder of giants. Socrates would tell me that "just because I believe something to be true doesn't necessarily make it knowledge; it makes it true belief." (Epistemology). That my friend is something I can wrap my head around. I wound up where I started with, faith - why we know what we know is because of the age we live in. The formula's we follow, and what we believe in.     

     Although I believe the "original sin" was doubt, because eating of the fruit of the Tree of knowledge; only resulted in losing understanding without knowledge; I'll leave you with one passage I have never been able to introduce in an Anthropology class. To wit: The Sons of God met with the Daughters of Men and found them fair." Madame Blavatsky's writings will tell you what she thought the result was. I'm sorry I can't footnote it.

      It is a long stretch and even a longer time for any machine to become self-aware when so many humans are still immersed in their physical and intellectual capacity too often frightened or turned off or away, from their psychic (understanding without knowledge) and spiritual (consciousness) qualities.

       Our concerns about the motivation behind Artificial intelligent are very much on the same page. "The scientists and engineers who are working on these A.I. singularity projects. Who are they? Where are they coming from, philosophically, metaphysically/spiritually(if at all) and ethically and morally? That's were the problems will arise, not so much with the A.I. projects." You have struck at the heart of the matter regardless of spirituality. That is why we must stay vigilant and not allow the uninitiated to run roughshod over archaic wisdom. 

       On a lighter note; I was in the hospital recently and in the ER they brought over a portable X-ray machine. It almost seemed animated. I was smiling and the nurse asked; "Are you feeling better?" I said, "No it's just that your machine reminds of a primitive prototype or ancestor of R2D2. Luckily she was a Star Wars fan and got the joke.

Be well,

Peter

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Permalink Reply by Martin Euser on March 25, 2011 at 9:24pm

"We ought to understand that natural selection is the means by which evolution operates. Of course this is random, notwithstanding intelligent design."

No, natural selection is not random, according to evolution theory. The fittest survive, and the survivors are the fittest. A true tautology, acknowledged by Gregory Bateson. Biologists acknowledge external adaptation, but don't understand internal adaptations at all. They don't understand consciousness as a factor in the process.

Mutations are considered to be random AFAIK. That can be questioned as well, of course. Are all mutations random? One simply cannot prove that statement.

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Permalink Reply by Michael A. Williams on March 25, 2011 at 10:32pm

Peter,

I'm with you concerning Western Conventional Medicine. It has its uses and good points, but falls short in so many areas. The natural/alternative methods are best to adhere to for long term prevention and healing, in my view. Acupuncture is a good avenue for you.

I suggest you check out the website of Dr. Norm Shealy, MD, who is also very much into natural, alternative therapies and the metaphysical/spiritual. He's a leading expert on pain management. I've heard 3 interviews with him and he's great. I don't know your budget, but he offers a lot on his website and you can also contact him personally.

http://www.normshealy.com/

I hope this can help and the best to you. I'll keep an eye on the radio program and see how it develops.

Michael

Peter O'Lalor said:

Thank you Michael,

       I've a couple of maladies without cause or treatment. That's Western medicine for you. However, I was just granted disability and will be able to indulge in acupuncture, (the body's own energy healing itself). The tissue covering my bones and my cartilage become increasingly inflamed and my skeleton hurts 24/7 in varying degrees. I always wondered why Madame B. didn't make the mind body connection. I know mine is due to nearly unbearable stress, trials, and tribulations. I was fortunate to find Theosophy.net, it's been a real life line.

      I like your quote from M. Ghandi. Lao Tse (The Way), also said "Physical strength is a weakness because it is easier to hurt than to help and easier to harm than to heal." Let us watch carefully, as you say and be on guard. I look forward to more correspondence with you. Please keep an eye out for the radio show. I hope you will participate. 

Peter

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Permalink Reply by William John Meegan on April 7, 2011 at 1:26pm

I would have thought that it is obvious that one can not butt his head up against the desires of the merchants of this world.   The bottom-line is, this is what this discussion is all about.  For one thing artificial intelligence is not possible.  I have several computer programming degrees and I know of what I speak.  To achieve artificial intelligence would by necessity create sentient life - similar to the android DATA on STAR TREK.  Yes, computers can seem almost more intelligent than man and when it get to the point that the consensus is that artificial intelligence is achieved it will not matter one jot or tittle against what the merchant wants: that is the sum of all politics.  Even if we agree that artificial intelligence is possible no one would listen to its suggestions because to impliment those suggestions would be a death knell to the economy.  Man will be forever in a catch-22 situation: dammed if he does and dammed if he doesn't.

 

No matter what the future technological advancement are all of the present and future THINK TANKS have to factor in the needs and the desires of the MERCHANT.  If you have time to worry over the things you have no power over then you are loosing the time you can be spending on understanding what esotericism is about.  You can not have your cake and eat it.

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Permalink Reply by William John Meegan on April 7, 2011 at 3:48pm

Sorry Peter:

 

I have to respectfully decline your invitation based on my beliefs that as long as government is involved, and there is no way out of that conundrum for there is no such thing as morality and/or ethics in politics.  I have seen too many abominations take place upon the face of the earth allegedly on my behalf as an American Citizen: wars, polluting the air, waters and earth and the starvation of million not to forget the relocation of hundreds of millions in order to land grab that I know that any efforts on my part or a thousand legions of lawyers would not have the effect of a single insect against the political winds.

 

One can not merge ancient wisdom with the demon mentality of government.  Some day, hopefully, you will learn that truism.  However, there is nothing like experience to teach the harsh lessons of life to the ever hopeful.

 

Peter wrote:

• Please join us at World Wide Wisdom Radio premiering 4/12 at 9pm EDT as we will attempt to bring forth ancient wisdom to confront the social issues of the day, e.g., ethics, in science, religion, and government.

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Permalink Reply by William John Meegan on April 7, 2011 at 8:22pm

As a historian you must realize that it was the merchants that started the Revolutionary War.  Washington and his cohorts were not nice people as we are given them in nice neat moral packages in our public school system: they were in fact hunted criminals and would have been hung for their criminal activities if captured.  They had no choice but to fight.  However, the victor, as you are well aware, writes the history.

 

Jefferson when he wrote the Declaration of Independence with those famous first three words: WE THE PEOPLE was in fact saying WE THE MERCHANTS.  That is an undeniable fact.  The common man did not even enter into the equation of what that war was all about.  The common man was something to be exploited and used.  In fact the white slaves of the north was in more dire straight (Indentured Slaves similar to what you pointed out above as student loans: if our children in the twenty-first century are not indentured slaves who is.) then the south, which I believe is what cause the Civil War to come about.

 

When you read history through that sieve it is not all AS puritanical as you are making it out to be.  Washington even had his Negro Slaves.  If you truly wanted to change thing first get rid of the lobbyists that work for special interest groups.  Get them out of Washington, DC and make them only work in their own states and report every meeting (and its content) and deals made on the internet.  Get rid of PACK MONIES for individual congressmen and senators and make it where they can not work for any corporation or its subsidiaries for at least twenty-five years after leaving office.  These are cash-less bribes of the twenty-first century.  Get rid of Congress' incentive to vote for the merchant without regard to the common man.

 

Get rid of media consolidation: one voice is not open to educating the people to what you want them to hear.

 

These are basic to any reform in Washington.  I can remember a time when Congressmen and Senator quaked  in their books because they were being investigated by Investigative Journalists.  Now that the corporations of America rule the airways the greatest threat to Congress has been alleviated.

 

Everything else is fluff: you might as well not be an activist.

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Permalink Reply by Michael A. Williams on April 13, 2011 at 4:10pm

Peter, I ran across this today and thought you'd and some others might enjoy it. It's an interview with Dr. Stuart Hameroff, Professor Emeritus in the Departments of Anesthesiology and Psychology at the University of Arizona, where he also serves as the Director of the Center for Consciousness Studies. It's titiled "Dr, Stuart Hameroff On Quantum Consciousness and Moving Singularity Goal Posts."

 

http://www.skeptiko.com/stuart-hameroff-on-quantum-consciousness-an...

 

Since the University of Arizona is in Tucson, Arizona, Joe's own backyard, he might be able to get Dr. Hameroff as a guest on a future World Wide Wisdom show.

 

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Permalink Reply by Hari Menon on August 30, 2012 at 2:27am

Dear Michael ,

        It Doctor is evidently in error if he has to "research'' consciousness and study it - no man(or woman for that matter ) thinks I a man or I am a woman - it is self evident (to perception and so to our intellect), only a  weak intellect would have to keep reminding itself as to what it is . He would be researching and studying Consciousness from a very inferior position - for if he were not consciousness himself how would he do actions (including thinking and accretion of knowledge ) for everything is done in consciousness -  I think maybe the  ambit of the word  consciousness in my reasoning and his would probably be different. He probably believes that the doctor in him is conscious and not a result brought about by a reflection of knowledge . Agency through the intellect is far more trickier than physical agency where one is ''Used by another' .  I do remember reading of an Indian scientist in America who had made great breakthrough in the research of consciousness and he called the observed phenomenon as "Phantom Consciousness" - which only illustrates his word idea of  Consciousness. A funny thought occurred to me while reading this article here in a news paper , as person who had observed house lizards , they are conscious that their tails have fallen off - either bitten off by a senior or lost in a tussle amongst themselves , jammed in a door and other circumstances warranting their loss - but the phantom part does materialize in due course. A total waste of good support and research money and time. It is good science and its various branches do afford a good place for people to live quite affordably at the expense of others much as there are flotsam and jetsam from society living on the "centre" and 'Fringes'' in any ashram.

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Permalink Reply by Hari Menon on August 30, 2012 at 12:58am

Dear Peter ,

             It is quite saddening that we are regressing into the stone age as human beings , The dream state which is the substratum and more pervasive than the waking state is a universe in itself . We are slowly losing the ability to reason correctly and sift right knowledge from erroneous knowledge .(an aspect of wrong knowledge is its ability to vitiate general principles of reasoning and project itself as ''the knowledge itself'' for a short time till someone or something comes along to controvert it). To explain it more reasonably consider this :

The physical world in all its physical magnitude exists as we know . Human beings have come in at some point in the history of the world - and many things we tout as inventions, findings, and making life easier etc have been generated by the human mind - but does it not provoke thought in a person to wonder : that over the ages so many new things have been developed by human beings , even language and the subtle science of logic and reasoning and jurisprudence which is the art of justice - and all have invariably been generated from what WAS already there in the latent state in various forms of matter and the world has been providing mankind with all things necessary for their living conditions -As long as any creature is living on earth - everything is already there to satisfy its need , it has been provided we are part of both the cause and effect - there is no use ,utility or need that a man may even think of that is not already provided for and already existing on earth - any variances are due to a deluded psychosis arising from wrong reasoning , indiscriminate use of words its morphing  which affect our relationship with the world. In any case there is a saving grace mankind is only capable of 4 types of actions and nothing more - Production,Acquisition,Transformation and Purification a fifth type does not exist and any huge variations will only result in a degrading of mankind - it would be some attainment the day Scientists reproduce a single blade of grass in all its aspects including genomes - or is it because we do not eat grass and it is reserved for the "horizontals'' in our population ?. A connundrum  - there is no relation between an object and the seer of the object both ARE distinct and separate . Intelligent methods are required for us (the effect) to transcend effect itself from its midst to gain to the cause .What of natural selection ? it is well known that all beings are born of Seed,Egg,Sweat and Self division a fifth does not exist - a dog cannot be born of an elephant or even a mouse or a cat . Support and stay of the waking state in which all experiments are done are only words and it has no other support - once sound subsides there is no  world - words are our only means of transmitting knowledge in the pure waking state and such knowledge is always transformed according to the understanding or nature of the intellect of the listener - so we end up with a multiplicity of mistakes in intellects . Yes generally all may get the import but specifically most or almost all will be in error.Human kind is already the  highest form of art in creation as the most artificial and insentient appearing as sentient . All beings are at its best if tackled physically a remote Theoretical Possibility only. I have nothing against science and scientists - only that it makes things all so much more difficult to weed out the intellect of such knowledge - since pride from learning is a devil to be dealt with ,the pain of having had a good education and living to regret it . The revenge of the Pathos of Distance .

         

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