Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Christian von Lahr on March 30, 2011 at 4:36pm

The resurrected Osiris walks (surfs) the Way of the Stars aboard his wormhole-shaped ship of eternity.

This has always been an interesting art artifact.  Given some of the discussion thus far, I wanted to indicate the that Christian view of Father, Son, Holy Ghost/Feminine are rather direct reproductions of older stories from distant cultures, and almost in its entirety.  The above is indicative of one such examples, Horus, Osiris and Isis.

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Permalink Reply by Christian von Lahr on March 30, 2011 at 4:40pm

Sumerian cylinder seal. C. 2300 B.C. The oldest human story, the Epic of Gilgamesh,is an immortality tale in which the Sumerian king is told he is 2/3 divine and 1/3 human. In order to enter the gate of the gods (as he is shown here) Gilgamesh must become whole, holy, complete.

 

This should resonate with Theosphists.  AND, as such, it leads me to believe that perhaps SOMETHING in ancient times could be a material source or form that gave rise to what we now call Illuminati, but more figuratively, some body that feels entitled to rule the world, the protector of some great proof that gives them entitlement to inherit the Earth, and the wise ones.

Permalink Reply by Christian von Lahr on March 30, 2011 at 4:44pm

The Egyptian god, Sokar, stands in a gate or chamber and is transformed by the healing power of the goddesses on either side of the gate

 

That "chamber" could be indicative of some currently known, but secreted away artifact in the hands of Illuminati or some body even Higher which provides some self-evident proof of being chosen, enlightened and entitled.  And, this would be quite ancient, far older than the date moderns would associate with the Illuminati.

Permalink Reply by Michael A. Williams on March 30, 2011 at 4:46pm

Christian, thanks for posting. This William Henry is very into ancient Egypt. also.

Permalink Reply by Christian von Lahr on March 30, 2011 at 4:48pm

Notice the similarities in these antiquities, the Osiris Transformation Chamber, and the Hindu Transformation Chamber.  SOMETHING must have existed in real from, from which these philosophies and artifacts were made as representations.

 

 

Osiris in the Transformation Chamber flanked by Djed pillars

 

 

Hindu Celestial Being flanked by pillars that are similar to the Egyptian Djed pillars.  Philadelphia Museum of Art

Permalink Reply by Christian von Lahr on March 30, 2011 at 4:54pm

Image of a cloak or garment of light being transmitted from one person to another. This is the robe that initiates the transformation or metamorphosis into the next human.  Every spiritual tradition has a term for this robe or cloak of the illumined, the cloak of the Next Human.

 

 

Thanks Michael A. Williams, your suggested site as provide a lot of graphic indicators of what I am speaking to.  There May/Must be something substantial behind the concept of these secret societies.  Perhaps, as illustrated above, it is a cloak with demonstrable mystical properties.  It could be anything from artifacts, to people, to trees to spaceships, or even out-world documents or skeletal remains.  But [something] must bind these societies together, and theosophy has shown in its history it demands "proofs," or it is subject to doubt and determination.

 

Permalink Reply by Christian von Lahr on March 30, 2011 at 5:02pm

Perhaps there are actual, demonstrable, repeatable processes that factually convince certain people they have inordinate gifts, and therefor rights of governorship of the world. I'll share one such indication that ties to Theosophy, and it is "invisibility."  I can't help but be drawn to the Christian belief in the body of Jesus disappearing in the cave (or was it a "chamber" as already suggested?)

Rosicrucianism started in Europe in the fifteenth century. Among the papers of that time, there are a number that talk about invisibility. A brother in the Rosicrucian fraternity wrote a paper on how to walk invisible among men, and there is evidence that this was being taught in those early days. H. Spencer Lewis, the founder of the Ancient and Mystical Order Rosae Crucis in San Jose, California, stated that one can gain invisibility with the use of clouds. He says that clouds or bodies of mist can be called out of the invisible to surround a person and thus shut him out of the sight of others. According to Lewis, this secret practice is still taught in the mystical schools of today. The written literature on this subject supports the statement that the cloud is the basis of the Rosicrucian invisibility secret.

A man named John Macky, who was an early Masonic leader (the early Masons were believed to be an offshoot of the Rosicrucians) taught a method whereby any man could render himself invisible. Another offshoot of the Rosicrucian fraternity, the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, left manuscripts describing the Ritual of Invisibility. These manuscripts talk about surrounding yourself with a shroud, which is described as looking like a cloud.

It is said that Madame Blavatsky, of the Theosophical Society, witnessed this invisibility for herself and was actually given the secret, thereafter accomplishing this for herself on several occasions in front of witnesses. The literature on the Spiritualists in the U.S. shows that there is no doubt they, too, knew about the cloud and its creation.

What is this cloud? We are looking for something that is between empty space and actual physical matter, something unseen by the naked eye but very much in existence. The Rosicrucian manual tells us that the first form into which spirit essence concentrates preparatory to material manifestation is electrons. When spiritual essence gathers into very minute focal points of electrical charge (due to certain conditions), we have the creation of electrons.

Science reports that such a cloud of free electrons will absorb all light entering it; it will not reflect nor refract light waves, nor are light waves able to pass through a human being. Consequently the observer¹s eye sees nothing there and the person surrounded by such a cloud is invisible. Since light is necessary for human sight, when there are no reflected or refracted light waves bouncing off a person and hitting the observer's retina, the person is not able to be seen and is not visible under normal circumstances.

Permalink Reply by William John Meegan on March 30, 2011 at 7:22pm

Michael:

You have obviously not read my academically peer-reviewed work on THE SISTINE CHAPEL: A Study in Celestial Cartography.  Here I demonstrate that the entire chapel is based upon Christian Hermeticism.  Somewhere along the line you obtained a false take on Catholicism

Michael A. Williams said:

William,

The core exoteric dogma of both the Catholic and Protestant Church is that Jesus Christ was born of a virgin, was the only Son Of God, died for our sins on the cross and the only way to Heaven is to believe this and if a person doesn't, they are doomed to everlasting Hell. The Catholic Church adds some spins on it, namely that only through their Church Hierarchy/structure, is a person saved, that the Pope is God's present day and only Emissary on the planet,  and that there is a purgatory, and a few other things. Most Protestant denominations believe they are the best way, but will concede only a belief in Jesus as Savior is needed for entrance into Heaven.

That is the mainstream Christianity doctrine that I was referring to when i referenced the Vatican Library having documents, books and artifacts that would expose that as false. Myself and others are going by many reports from ex-Catholics over the centuries that have been close to the Vatican. You are taking the word of the Vatican Officials that there is no such evidence there. Both are unreliable in the end, so it's no use debating this further.

I think I now understand better where you are coming from; an "esoteric Christianity" that you claim is the essence of the teachings of the Catholic Church. This would certainly come as breaking news to all my old friends who grew up Catholic, went to Catholic schools, and never heard a word about astrology, alchemy, sacred geometry, ancient Western Mystery Schools, etc.

We're talking about Hermeticism here(with a Christian twist) and, If anything, the Catholic Church through the centuries has fought Hermeticism, it's offshoots, and the very ideas and concepts you have expressed in this discussion and on the other forums here. In point of fact, during the inquisition, you would have been burned at the stake for bringing up astrology, alchemy, etc., let alone defending it.

I think the evidence is clear that the Catholic Hierarchy, engineered from the Vatican, has fought to spread and defend it's power over people and nations, not to keep the flame of any ageless esoteric teachings that would free the individual spiritually.

This is not to cast aspersions on all Catholics. There are many fine people who are Catholic laypeople, and in spite of the pedophile scandals, many Priests doing good work in their parishes. I admire the Brazilian novelist, Paulo Coelho, a Catholic mystic, who says: "It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”

I respect your lifelong research and study of metaphysical and spiritual areas, and you seem to have come to an understanding that satisfies you. But, for me, you're unsuccessfully trying to fit them into some supposed secret, underground teachings of the Catholic Church, that just doesn't jive with any known, or secret, history, myself or others are familiar with.

And, you have yet to tell us what you consider the "sacred scriptures."

 

William John Meegan said:

Michael:

 

I view secret societies different than Mysteries Schools though many modern secret societies claim to be mystery schools.

I believe that I mentioned quite a few times in my posts that there is no way to influence another in the esoteric teachings.  No I do not convert anyone because that is not my onus: it is God's will how a soul seeks Him out.

I just don't get it about this belief from out of the hordes that the Catholic Church has documents (and I am not a Catholic defender) that would blow the lid off: OF WHAT EXACTLY?  The teachings of Catholicism cannot be destroyed because they were constructed from the previous religions that went the way of the DO DO BIRD.  Their teachings esoterically are the same as all the other major esoteric religions around the world.  The Church's teaching came from the empyrean: the MONAD.

What are these people trying to say that they will get rid of corrupted Church officials?  So what, new officials will be appointed.  The leadership of the Church is not the teachings.  The Church's responsibility is liken to the curator of a museum: they protect the integrity of the teachings.  They literally have no other responsibility.   They may want to think they do but the bottom line is that there is no other purpose for their continuous existence as an organization.   I just don't get what would be annihilated by any revelations from documents.  To understand that Catholicism is a compendium of all religions and mythologies on earth is no revelation: THAT IS A GIVEN.  To understand that their were warmongering popes in the past so what is the difference from our modern presidents??  To learn that they committed untold war crimes: so what of Hitler, Stalin, Reagan, Bush Sr. and Bush Jr., Clinton and the hold litany of war criminals.  SO WHAT?  How does that or any other criminal revelation negate the word of God?

I do understand that the researcher has to go beyond the pale to obtain what will meet his needs in obtaining knowledge of the esoteric science.  For me I too have studied many of the Protestant sects and listen to their twaddle.  I have also researched much of the occult and esoteric lore.  My library is full of such materials, which I have learned a great deal from.

But know this: as much as I ventured into the peripheral teachings of the esoteric science: everything outside of the sacred scriptures and as much as I have learned from them, and still learn from them, it is but a shadow of what I have learned by honing my analytical abilities to the documents of antiquity themselves.  All of that peripheral material are liken to notes and scraps of ideas used by the esoterist to prepare for writing the esoteric text.  Those images and symbols have no contexts outside their ultimate use in the sacred literature of the world.  To see an image or a symbol out of context without explanation has no meaning.  But to see that same image or symbol codified esoterically to the text of the sacred scriptures is a thousand times more edifying.  Do not get me wrong.  It is necessary for the initiate to wade through the mythologies, lore and traditions of the world and the occult and esoteric materials so that he will have a database of knowledge to reference when he comes across it in the esoteric teachings of the sacred scriptures of the world.  Without that database as a foundation he would not recognize what he was coming across in his researches.

The occult and present day esoteric lore that we are presented with is as if someone when into a sage's attic and discovered scrap books of ideas, images and symbols long after the sage had published his work and died.  Now you may find a work by Dante Alighieri or the Rosarium Philsophorum or whatever and not know that all those images and symbols and ideas are codified to those works.  What the attic searcher will take is not the completed published works but the scraps of ideas.  "We humans stand on a whale fishing for minnows".

 

Michael A. Williams said:

William,

I must challenge on a few statements. You tell us not to look into "Secret Societies" or "Mystery Schools' and just rely on your research over many years. Nothing could be further from what to do. You've stated you're a Catholic, and this reflects the Catholic Church's position for centuries. It's obvious that the real Mystery Schools and Secret Societies have posed a power threat to the Church and they've tried to wipe them out time after time. (The Protestant Churches are no better, as they advise people not to study these either)

I say let people, if this is their chosen path, join and investigate, research and study any and all of the ancient Mystery Schools and Secret Societies, West and East, and decide for themselves. I think in the process they'll find there is much more to the metaphysical and spiritual life than the standard "sacred scriptures."

I don't say not to study the "sacred scriptures," which I assume you mean the New Testament. But, any study of that has to keep in mind that the Council of Nicea was a power play on the part of Constantine and the participants. They edited, revised, and misinterpreted(intentionally and unintentionally) what documents they accepted, throwing out what didn't suit their purposes.

As for the Vatican Library, I'm definitely with the camp that says there is hidden material there, books, documents and artifacts, that would blow the lid off mainstream Christiandom if they ever came to light. Obviously, as a loyal Catholic, you would deny such.

As for "secret teachings" being held by the Catholic Church, in this I'm sure you're right. There's nothing they would have in the form of "teachings" in the Western Mystical/Esoteric tradition that isn't already available somewhere that can be accessed by an interested individual.

Your book is probably worthy of reading for people interested in this line of inquiry. But, are you out to "convert" us to your style of Catholicism or to share your views and suggest that we consider them in a mutually respectful atmosphere?

 

Permalink Reply by Michael A. Williams on March 30, 2011 at 8:39pm

William,

I don't think I mis-represented mainstream Catholicism, this is pretty basic dogma in the public domain. I'm sorry you chose to duck the issues I brought up, but that's okay, this is a time consuming exchange! 

I'm sure your paper on the Sistine Chapel is well researched and presented. It's been publicly known for about 10 years or so that there's much esoteric symbolism in the said Chapel. I'll certainly read it when I get a chance, I have a backlog of reading, and look forward to your take on it all.

And, I should make it clear, I am on the side of Hermeticism.

 

William John Meegan said:

Michael:

You have obviously not read my academically peer-reviewed work on THE SISTINE CHAPEL: A Study in Celestial Cartography.  Here I demonstrate that the entire chapel is based upon Christian Hermeticism.  Somewhere along the line you obtained a false take on Catholicism

Michael A. Williams said:

William,

The core exoteric dogma of both the Catholic and Protestant Church is that Jesus Christ was born of a virgin, was the only Son Of God, died for our sins on the cross and the only way to Heaven is to believe this and if a person doesn't, they are doomed to everlasting Hell. The Catholic Church adds some spins on it, namely that only through their Church Hierarchy/structure, is a person saved, that the Pope is God's present day and only Emissary on the planet,  and that there is a purgatory, and a few other things. Most Protestant denominations believe they are the best way, but will concede only a belief in Jesus as Savior is needed for entrance into Heaven.

That is the mainstream Christianity doctrine that I was referring to when i referenced the Vatican Library having documents, books and artifacts that would expose that as false. Myself and others are going by many reports from ex-Catholics over the centuries that have been close to the Vatican. You are taking the word of the Vatican Officials that there is no such evidence there. Both are unreliable in the end, so it's no use debating this further.

I think I now understand better where you are coming from; an "esoteric Christianity" that you claim is the essence of the teachings of the Catholic Church. This would certainly come as breaking news to all my old friends who grew up Catholic, went to Catholic schools, and never heard a word about astrology, alchemy, sacred geometry, ancient Western Mystery Schools, etc.

We're talking about Hermeticism here(with a Christian twist) and, If anything, the Catholic Church through the centuries has fought Hermeticism, it's offshoots, and the very ideas and concepts you have expressed in this discussion and on the other forums here. In point of fact, during the inquisition, you would have been burned at the stake for bringing up astrology, alchemy, etc., let alone defending it.

I think the evidence is clear that the Catholic Hierarchy, engineered from the Vatican, has fought to spread and defend it's power over people and nations, not to keep the flame of any ageless esoteric teachings that would free the individual spiritually.

This is not to cast aspersions on all Catholics. There are many fine people who are Catholic laypeople, and in spite of the pedophile scandals, many Priests doing good work in their parishes. I admire the Brazilian novelist, Paulo Coelho, a Catholic mystic, who says: "It's one thing to feel that you are on the right path, but it's another to think that yours is the only path.”

I respect your lifelong research and study of metaphysical and spiritual areas, and you seem to have come to an understanding that satisfies you. But, for me, you're unsuccessfully trying to fit them into some supposed secret, underground teachings of the Catholic Church, that just doesn't jive with any known, or secret, history, myself or others are familiar with.

And, you have yet to tell us what you consider the "sacred scriptures."

 

William John Meegan said:

Michael:

 

I view secret societies different than Mysteries Schools though many modern secret societies claim to be mystery schools.

I believe that I mentioned quite a few times in my posts that there is no way to influence another in the esoteric teachings.  No I do not convert anyone because that is not my onus: it is God's will how a soul seeks Him out.

I just don't get it about this belief from out of the hordes that the Catholic Church has documents (and I am not a Catholic defender) that would blow the lid off: OF WHAT EXACTLY?  The teachings of Catholicism cannot be destroyed because they were constructed from the previous religions that went the way of the DO DO BIRD.  Their teachings esoterically are the same as all the other major esoteric religions around the world.  The Church's teaching came from the empyrean: the MONAD.

What are these people trying to say that they will get rid of corrupted Church officials?  So what, new officials will be appointed.  The leadership of the Church is not the teachings.  The Church's responsibility is liken to the curator of a museum: they protect the integrity of the teachings.  They literally have no other responsibility.   They may want to think they do but the bottom line is that there is no other purpose for their continuous existence as an organization.   I just don't get what would be annihilated by any revelations from documents.  To understand that Catholicism is a compendium of all religions and mythologies on earth is no revelation: THAT IS A GIVEN.  To understand that their were warmongering popes in the past so what is the difference from our modern presidents??  To learn that they committed untold war crimes: so what of Hitler, Stalin, Reagan, Bush Sr. and Bush Jr., Clinton and the hold litany of war criminals.  SO WHAT?  How does that or any other criminal revelation negate the word of God?

I do understand that the researcher has to go beyond the pale to obtain what will meet his needs in obtaining knowledge of the esoteric science.  For me I too have studied many of the Protestant sects and listen to their twaddle.  I have also researched much of the occult and esoteric lore.  My library is full of such materials, which I have learned a great deal from.

But know this: as much as I ventured into the peripheral teachings of the esoteric science: everything outside of the sacred scriptures and as much as I have learned from them, and still learn from them, it is but a shadow of what I have learned by honing my analytical abilities to the documents of antiquity themselves.  All of that peripheral material are liken to notes and scraps of ideas used by the esoterist to prepare for writing the esoteric text.  Those images and symbols have no contexts outside their ultimate use in the sacred literature of the world.  To see an image or a symbol out of context without explanation has no meaning.  But to see that same image or symbol codified esoterically to the text of the sacred scriptures is a thousand times more edifying.  Do not get me wrong.  It is necessary for the initiate to wade through the mythologies, lore and traditions of the world and the occult and esoteric materials so that he will have a database of knowledge to reference when he comes across it in the esoteric teachings of the sacred scriptures of the world.  Without that database as a foundation he would not recognize what he was coming across in his researches.

The occult and present day esoteric lore that we are presented with is as if someone when into a sage's attic and discovered scrap books of ideas, images and symbols long after the sage had published his work and died.  Now you may find a work by Dante Alighieri or the Rosarium Philsophorum or whatever and not know that all those images and symbols and ideas are codified to those works.  What the attic searcher will take is not the completed published works but the scraps of ideas.  "We humans stand on a whale fishing for minnows".

 

Michael A. Williams said:

William,

I must challenge on a few statements. You tell us not to look into "Secret Societies" or "Mystery Schools' and just rely on your research over many years. Nothing could be further from what to do. You've stated you're a Catholic, and this reflects the Catholic Church's position for centuries. It's obvious that the real Mystery Schools and Secret Societies have posed a power threat to the Church and they've tried to wipe them out time after time. (The Protestant Churches are no better, as they advise people not to study these either)

I say let people, if this is their chosen path, join and investigate, research and study any and all of the ancient Mystery Schools and Secret Societies, West and East, and decide for themselves. I think in the process they'll find there is much more to the metaphysical and spiritual life than the standard "sacred scriptures."

I don't say not to study the "sacred scriptures," which I assume you mean the New Testament. But, any study of that has to keep in mind that the Council of Nicea was a power play on the part of Constantine and the participants. They edited, revised, and misinterpreted(intentionally and unintentionally) what documents they accepted, throwing out what didn't suit their purposes.

As for the Vatican Library, I'm definitely with the camp that says there is hidden material there, books, documents and artifacts, that would blow the lid off mainstream Christiandom if they ever came to light. Obviously, as a loyal Catholic, you would deny such.

As for "secret teachings" being held by the Catholic Church, in this I'm sure you're right. There's nothing they would have in the form of "teachings" in the Western Mystical/Esoteric tradition that isn't already available somewhere that can be accessed by an interested individual.

Your book is probably worthy of reading for people interested in this line of inquiry. But, are you out to "convert" us to your style of Catholicism or to share your views and suggest that we consider them in a mutually respectful atmosphere?

 

Permalink Reply by Christian von Lahr on March 30, 2011 at 9:30pm

I'm watching a new program right no on the History Channel: Secret Access | the Vatican. Amazing stuff. Imagine 50 miles of shelves to store the secret documents of history held in the Vatican; and this was stated as one of 3 strongholds. Letters from President Lincoln and Jefferson Davis of the Confederates with one reply - one to Jefferson Davis with a salutation to the PRESIDENT of the Confederate States. It's interesting that one common rumer states the Illuminati is ALWAYS involved in world conflict, and backs both sides to ensure its influence. Video evidence in this expose shows a tiny marbled enclave holding the presumed bones of St. Peter, down in a rather recently discovered massive graveyard dating back to the time of Jesus.

Permalink Reply by Christian von Lahr on March 30, 2011 at 9:37pm

The "founding Fathers" did not trust the Vatican and considered it a secret society of repression.  Or so, the special states.  Yet, in this modern age EVERY president of the United States pays homage to the Pope.  It is recognized as a [power] due to its influence over 1.4 billion Catholics.  Kennedy took a different stance and the world was on edge.  When he met the pope, he did not and was the only President to NOT kiss the Popes' ring.  That president was assassinated, as was President Lincoln.  This is certainly great fodder for Conspiracy Theorists, I should think.

Permalink Reply by Christian von Lahr on March 30, 2011 at 9:54pm

The red color that the Pope's hand-picked Cardinals wear is to symbolize the blood they are willing to shed on behalf of the Pope.  Wow, there must be a great story to explore in that statement.  They sure have a lot of Cardinals, and the world is witness to incredible devastation of life.  Is all of that so public, though?  This Vicker of Christ has even visited the CIA, and became the target of an assassination call by Bin Ladin.  He has people in every country in the world, so the Vatican is a place to keep tabs on world events.  In America we have had diplomatic relations within the Vatican for 25+ years, to be close to the Vatican's awareness.  The papacy is alleged to succumb to corruption by power families in the 1400s.  Popes were actually bribed.  Murder occurred.  There was a long reign of debauched Popes.

 

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