Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Christian von Lahr on August 15, 2011 at 8:43pm

Thank you Capt.  I’ll reply in my opinion only, and not in any competing scholastic way:

 

QUOTE: As for your analysis of money being the root cause of all the problem, please consider that money is only one of the ways of exercising Power. It is secondary. Most of our problems are due to greed which is the primary motivator for power as well as money. No esoteric philosophy so far has been able to address the problem of greed (else we would not be in such a situation today) as those are founded on the concept of power too. Densities, energies, rounds, globes, numbers, geometries, spheres and what have you, have all failed to deliver humanity from the clutches of Greed.

 

Failed?   Uh, they are not presumed to succeed YET. Delivery is essentially a spiritual evolutionary process if looked at esoterically - in my opinion. To actually judge or take accounts of the {densities, energies, rounds, globes, numbers, geometries, spheres} would be premature as such matters indicate the great [changes] we speak to here to occur after we've achieved an appreciable level of accomplishment (a half-way point in a race, round for example.

The very current one we are in will soon achive the key midpoint we are looking for, and that is just a short while away, so there IS hope).

 

QUOTE: Which Esoteric Philosophy has been successful in predicting the future in non-general wordings?

None, to my knowledge.  It wouldn’t be esoteric philosophy, I should think.

 

 

Quote:  On the other hand, exoteric Gandhian concepts of non-violence, co-operation etc. have a proven track record of solving the planet's problems.

Wonderful, is this topic moot, then?  I’ve missed something, somewhere. Or, perhaps you are indicating there has been at least one example of this working, so it should be adopted broadly.  With demonstrable success, what would be in the way of this approach universally?  I can only presume it is the concepts of money and power we spoke to previously.  If true, then how is this approach a solution?

 

Quote: Esotericism is by definition subjective (emphasis on individual experience) and therefore against the universal principle of UNITY of all beings.

Really?  I don’t think I interpret things that way.  Beyond the subjective definition, which I can’t say I agree with, “Individual experience” does not refer to experience in any particular time–frame regardless. Nor would it have to be universally experienced in time.  As regards a universal principle of UNITY of all beings, how could this possibly be logical at the current stage of development of human consciousness?  I certainly agree with it, but when we have all reached a common stage where the concept of “unity” can be applied (in other words, unity of disparate [things] seems illogical to me.  As we achieve the purpose of our current Race of existence, then we inherently (all of us) will have something consistent and uniform.  And so our collective uniform natures would make “unity” a natural process.  At this stage, there could only be [those] who see this wisdom and others who can be acknowledged for a degree of “perfection,” … but as a body of people and consciousness’s, we are currently disparate.  

 

Quote: Is it necessary to continue on the failed track rather than look for new ways of thinking.

Yes, and yes.  We CAN’T change the purposes of existence, the need for [experiences] in mankind results in these obvious tracks.  These CAN be looked upon, even if looking backwards, as a sign of progress.  If that is acceptable to you, then inevitable progress will eventually lead us to the superior [state] you anticipate by your “thinking.”  THOSE THAT CAN will and should pursue new ways of thinking (all ways) or we will not achieve the momentum that life should be indicative of. We should know “all” not just what the some of us consider “right.”  There are 7 billion people out there, they cannot all be capt. Anand Kumars – so many if not most will indeed explore a [failed] track until they themselves acknowledge it is failed.  Fortunately those billions are not all Christian von Lahr’s either, so there is fantastic opportunity for some to explore fantastic and productive new ways of thinking, which might even save our planet.  Understanding that both will likely ensue takes the right and wrong out of the situation such that those “thinkers,” are free to come up with great societal wisdom, and we non-thinkers (who by sheer numbers must be convinced) can be receptive to the greater works and wisdom of our intellectuals.  People by general nature follow, SO, when there is an ample leader with the means and ability to convey and share his or her vision, I suppose we humans will do what we do naturally, and follow.  As individuals, though, there might be 7 billion interpretations of self-preservation to overcome before the individuals become an “audience.”

Capt. Anand Kumar said:

Thanks Christian.

Which Esoteric Philosophy has been successful in predicting the future in non-general wordings?

As for your analysis of money being the root cause of all the problem, please consider that money is only one of the ways of exercising Power. It is secondary. Most of our problems are due to greed which is the primary motivator for power as well as money. No esoteric philosophy so far has been able to address the problem of greed (else we would not be in such a situation today) as those are founded on the concept of power too. Densities, energies, rounds, globes, numbers, geometries, spheres and what have you, have all failed to deliver humanity from the clutches of Greed.

On the other hand, exoteric Gandhian concepts of non-violence, co-operation etc. have a proven track record of solving the planet's problems. Esotericism is by definition subjective (emphasis on individual experience) and therefore against the universal principle of UNITY of all beings.

Is it necessary to continue on the failed track rather than look for new ways of thinking.

 

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Permalink Reply by Christian von Lahr on August 15, 2011 at 8:52pm

I agree with this, except perhaps the use of the word "first."  I would accept second, third or ANY move in that direction.

Martin Euser said:

Christian, ... The most fundamental cause of the mess we're in has to do with consciousness - or rather the lack thereof. Greed and power and status are mighty motivators of human behavior.

 

Yes, we need a different valuation for human efforts than the current money system - but becoming aware of all this is the first requirement before change can happen.

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Permalink Reply by Christian von Lahr on August 15, 2011 at 8:54pm

"Fear," is the real problem, ... agreed.

Michael A. Williams said:

These are all astute analyzes, gentlemen. Many like this has been going on for a long time. If analysis could solve the problems, then the problems would have been solved by now.

The root cause does stem from consciousness, as Martin pointed out. And it is FEAR. Individual fear and collective fear, feeding upon itself, causing more and more turmoil. The "ruling elite" does control the media, and thusly controls the collective through fear and negativity. It's well known that "negativity sells," and sells big. Sure, positive news is thrown in now and then, for variety and treated as "fluff."

All news is manipulated and edited. I'm not saying that everyone on a newspaper or cable news station is in on a "conspiracy," they're just following orders to bring in subscribers or viewers, which brings in more ad revenue. The ruling elite call the shots from way on high and manipulate the masses mainly through collective fear. The whole stock market downturn is an illustration. All based on fear feeding upon itself. Nothing disappeared from planet Earth. The law of conservation of energy held firm.

By buying into the collective fear and "doom and gloom" predictions, we contribute to it coming to manifestation in some form, usually in our own lives. By refusing to buy into that scenario, you've freed yourself from it.

L. K. A. is right, "thought' is not just electro-chemical processes in the brain, for these are the mere traces or "footprints" of thought. Thought is immaterial energy coming through the brain, affecting the quantum field, which is non-local(everywhere and nothing in the universe simultaneously)

For those who look to Eastern philosophies for their inspiration, the Buddha said:

 

"All that we are is the result of what we have thought. The mind is everything, what we think we become...with our thoughts we make the world"

"The secret of health for both mind and body is not to mourn for the past, worry about the future or anticipate troubles."

 

It's been mentioned that we should look to Gandhi for guidance. That's a great idea. Not to emulate his lifestyle, but to get the essence of what he was about. It was fearlessness and love for thy enemies. Not easy to emulate. They sound cliche in today's world, but they work.

The upshot of what I'm saying is that we don't know how much to believe in today's headlines in regards to most events and predictions. It's so craftily manipulated through multi-national corporations and governments, that to buy into the negativity and fear is to only push the "gloom and doom" along and be a pawn in their agenda.

I know there will be nay-sayers about this, but I say fear is our only real enemy and when we are rid of that, positivity and love naturally come into being. To try and serve others while full of fear, hate and anger, is counter-productive.

 

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Permalink Reply by Christian von Lahr on August 15, 2011 at 8:59pm

Interesting how you use the word "observe."  As we already know scientifically, to observe is to change.  Science now has advanced to the stage of saying when we revist a thought, that thought changes too.  What you are saying makes sense to me, thank you for the extra perspective.

L.k.A. Kirui said:

Christian,
Yes, and I wish to point out that thougths are not on the same par with any other process we observe in any laboratory. If this is what it means to be immaterial then thougths are certainly immaterial. Not just thougths but any subjective experience. The reason is that any other process observed in laboratory is an 'I' doing the observation of objects but when you want to understand thougths, we see that it is the vice versa, the objects observing the 'I.' 'I' is then certainly different from anything we experience in any laboratory. We experience it in the internal laboratory.

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Permalink Reply by Christian von Lahr on August 15, 2011 at 9:22pm

A general comment:

 

I don’t have a tendency to see anything as black and white; as in esoteric philosophy I hold that all  things fit somewhere within the gradients of gray between the polarities of black and white – collectively, these are still one point expressing itself to extremes.

 

The issues we discuss here are not individual problems unrelated to all things in the world.  We are actually dealing with a jig-saw puzzle when we refer to our current state of affairs.  Each piece of existence is quintessential to the overall picture on the puzzle.   So, to focus on any one piece means we will deliberately or not give focus to all.  That said, we can approach the problem under consideration from any piece (issue in the world, or in state of consciousness), at any place in time, and at any level of individual competency.  We will, in so doing, accomplish PROGRESS, not “the solution.”  Most likely when all pieces of existence are properly addressed, only then will any one piece we are focusing on seem to be a solved problem.

 

This outlook is simply my opinion; I'm sure this prisim can as easily be appreciated from its many individual colors and championing characters.  Having the disussion at all is probably the most important thing to occur.

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Permalink Reply by Christian von Lahr on August 16, 2011 at 9:27am

I've found a few other interesting quotes related to money; not that all here see that as the root of the problem - still, it is something to keep in mind.

 

"I am firmly of the opinion that there never was a paper pound, a paper dollar, or a paper promise of any kind, that ever yet obtained a general currency [as money] but by force or fraud, generally by both."3 (John Adams)

 

"A theft of greater magnitude and still more ruinous, is the making of paper money; it is greater because in this money there is absolutely no real value; it is more ruinous because by its gradual depreciation during the time of its existence, it produces the effect which would be proration of the coins. All those iniquities are founded on the false idea the money is but a sign."4 (Count Destutt de Tracy)

 

"If ever again our nation stumbles upon unfunded paper, it shall surely be like death to our body politic. This country will crash."5 (George Washington)

 

"That paper money corrupted the morals of the people; it had diverted them from the paths of honest industry to the ways of ruinous speculation; it had destroyed both public and private credit, and had brought total ruin on numberless widows and orphans...I apprehend these general reasoning will be found true with respect to paper money: that experience has shown that, in every state where it has been practiced since the revolution, it always carries the gold and silver out of the country, and impoverishes it."6 (C.C. Pinckney)

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Permalink Reply by Michael A. Williams on August 16, 2011 at 2:27pm

Christian, with all due respect, I'm wondering what the purpose of all these quotes are. I'm not accusing you personally, but it occurred to me that very possibly the "Ruling Elite" could be running a big scam on the masses here. Let me explain:

Obviously, most of the Gold in the world was bought up by sectors of the super rich years ago when the price was very low. Then they spend many years in a propaganda effort to spread fear about the current economic system, call it "fiat," if you like, and do what they can to not only undermine it, but erode the masses confidence in it. At the same time, they offer "Gold" as the safe haven that will allay the fears that that they themselves worked to plant in people's minds in the first place. Presto, they're making record profits, maybe in the billions, with so many folks rushing to buy Gold.

When the Ruling Elite have made enough, they start pulling the economic levers behind the scenes and lo-and-behold the fiat system begins working again, and they make even more profits and the price of Gold drops down to inconsequential levels.

My point here is, what is the metaphysical person to do now with all this economic "gloom and doom" going around. I don't have the final answer, but I don't think extremism is the course to follow. I advise not to panic, get a strong grip on one's fears and examine all angles in a calm frame of mind.

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Permalink Reply by Christian von Lahr on August 16, 2011 at 5:09pm

Are these points not speaking directly to Martin Euser's opening paragraph in this thread directly, and substantiating his point to take it beyond rhetoric?

 

"The problem with scientific materialism is that it offers an end but no means. It’s the law of the jungle. The means to survival are any way you can get there. You can use your brain and be Einstein or you can use an Uzi and be a brute. Either means can make you a leader. …

… It’s a civilization based on competition, not morality. …

… As a result, people in this culture accumulate as much material as they possibly can to beat everybody else in the race for survival. Die with the most toys, and you win the game. And the consequences? We have decimated the planet."

 

I'd like to offer one more quote (as these, again are expert learned opinions so as to take away any inference of subjectivity and bias that might otherwise be inferred) - then I will give a direct answer to your closing question which may pull it all together:

 

President Eisenhower's Secretary of the Treasury Anderson in an interview with U.S. News and World Report on August 31, 1959 said: Question: "Do you mean that banks, in buying Government securities, do not lend out their customers' deposits? That they create the money they use to buy the securities?" Answer (by Secretary Anderson): "That is correct. Banks are different from other lending institutions. When a savings and loan association, an insurance company, or a credit union makes a loan, it lends the very dollar that its customers have previously paid in. But when a bank makes a loan, it simply adds to the borrower's deposit account in the bank by the amount of the loan. The money is not taken from anyone else's deposit; it was not previously paid in to the bank by anyone. It's new money, created by the bank for the use of the borrower." "We are completely dependent on the commercial Banks. Someone has to borrow every dollar we have in circulation, cash or credit. If the Banks create ample synthetic money we are prosperous; if not, we starve. We are absolutely without a permanent money system. When one gets a complete grasp of the picture, the tragic absurdity of our hopeless position is almost incredible, but there it is. It is the most important subject intelligent persons can investigate and reflect upon. It is so important that our present civilization may collapse unless it becomes widely understood and the defects remedied soon."41 (Robert H. Hemphill, Credit Manager of Federal Reserve Bank, Atlanta, Ga.)

 

YOU ASKED:  " My point here is, what is the metaphysical person to do now with all this economic "gloom and doom" going around. I don't have the final answer, but I don't think extremism is the course to follow. I advise not to panic, get a strong grip on one's fears and examine all angles in a calm frame of mind."

 

I WOULD SAY:  Metaphysical people must show the way to the masses; what the true nature of man is.  The metaphysical person has the inherent ability to see a "Big Picture,"  without having to succumb to the slight-of-hand that forces most to focus where the magician desires so one cannot see "the Trick" in action. 

 

In this case, from even the earliest days of George Washington this country has been secretly at war with those who would control us; that control is through our Money, and this control is driven by (created) fear.  The political intellectuals of the past have already seen and stated (therefore, the quotes) that the real fight is for control of America; and now we metaphysicans must see too that the individual tragedies of government, commerce and infringement on government entitlements and Rights is an [external] thing.  We must be aware.  In so doing, we can and must get out that one message in all that we do; "BE AWARE!". 

 

Actually, this gives us the means and power to fight all of those aforementioned adversities with America and the planet at large, BECAUSE, we have the biggest and best weapon of all - WE ARE MANY.  All these situations indicated in prior posts are manipulated in that the slight-of-hand and focus of the puppeteers is to gain control of our thinking such that we have a channeled view and way of thinking. 

 

THIS gives those nefarious few power over the masses, and with amazing scope.  This too is where political office, appointments, and constant tweeking of laws, corporate and banking regulation, and of the Constitutional documents (to the point now that there are efforts underway to do away with them all together) enhance and ensure that control.  WE ARE PROGRAMMED.  Ye few but great metaphysicians must convey that we are powerful individuals, and more powerful collectively.  Actually, we have ultimate power, we simply give it away.  WE ARE MANY, there is no way with out existing constitution and Bill of Rights that we cannot, in America at least, SIEZE CONTROL of the direction of the country and the way it conducts its business - and we have to go to the core of things. 

 

WE ARE TOO MANY for any puppeteers to fight, hence their centuries of imposing tighter and tighter control over the mindset of people.  We are MEANT to feel helpless, and dependent on government.  We outnumber the bad guys billions-to-one.  If we are aware, we can get on with the business of our evolution. 

 

Metaphysicians HAVE THE MEANS to see the big picture, and have as well a vested interest in getting the masses on the course of the spiritual evolutionary process.

 

Again, as Martin Euser said in his opening, "... It's a civilization based on competition, not morality ..."  That sounds like a gauntlet that metaphysians should pick up.  Who better than we?

  

  

 PS:  re: Obviously, most of the Gold in the world was bought up by sectors of the super rich years ago when the price was very low..."

This has occurred periodically, and still occurs; it is not just a thing of the distant past.  THAT it has occured at all shows the power of those that  influence the action of the world.  EVEN IN THE BEGINNING, we knew not to let this happen.  If this brings hope, consider that regardless of the stockpiling of gold by many powerful countries in the world, America has mountains of it - the most, actually.  THAT should provide a real means to bring about change in our economy.  China is an interesting facet to this problem, because in addition to their buildup of gold preserves, they are a major gold producing country.  We have to be aware of how credit works in the world, and stocks - even "shorts," our we run the risk that befell the U.K. with its Sterling; They essentially lost their economy to one man who sold short on Sterling.  These [means] are systems PUT IN PLACE, ... we the masses have more power than any one or any thing to put things right.  As a metaphysiciian, find the might to put the light to the right.

 

 

Michael A. Williams said:

Christian, with all due respect, I'm wondering what the purpose of all these quotes are. I'm not accusing you personally, but it occurred to me that very possibly the "Ruling Elite" could be running a big scam on the masses here. Let me explain:

Obviously, most of the Gold in the world was bought up by sectors of the super rich years ago when the price was very low. Then they spend many years in a propaganda effort to spread fear about the current economic system, call it "fiat," if you like, and do what they can to not only undermine it, but erode the masses confidence in it. At the same time, they offer "Gold" as the safe haven that will allay the fears that that they themselves worked to plant in people's minds in the first place. Presto, they're making record profits, maybe in the billions, with so many folks rushing to buy Gold.

When the Ruling Elite have made enough, they start pulling the economic levers behind the scenes and lo-and-behold the fiat system begins working again, and they make even more profits and the price of Gold drops down to inconsequential levels.

My point here is, what is the metaphysical person to do now with all this economic "gloom and doom" going around. I don't have the final answer, but I don't think extremism is the course to follow. I advise not to panic, get a strong grip on one's fears and examine all angles in a calm frame of mind.

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Permalink Reply by Martin Euser on August 16, 2011 at 6:20pm

Only developing sustainable ways of living will lead us out of this mess we're in. Whether mass unemployment, hyperinflation, debt crisis, etc. Inform yourself about these things!

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Permalink Reply by Michael A. Williams on August 16, 2011 at 8:54pm

Christian, I'm leery of any mass movements, especially in the political arena, from either the right or the left. History has shown the troubles those bring. I hope you're not pointing toward the "Tea Party" here in the U.S. as some kind of "savior" movement. They're owned and operated, behind the scenes, by the multi-billionaire Koch Brothers and other big corporations. Although, they  claim to be for "the people," that's only a campaign line to mask their real intentions.

I'm not anti-government, only anti bad and corrupt government. I'm not anti corporations, only anti irresponsible and unethical corporations.

I'm no financial wiz and don't know the solutions to the banking and monetary systems we have. Even the experts disagree on what to do and how to reform. Changes, readjustments and balance will come about naturally and eventually. I can only deal with the situation at hand as it changes.

We're in challenging times and I say let's keep a positive visions in our minds for the future, not a "gloom and doom" one. Not all metaphysical/spiritual people agree on everything, we all know that, but that can surely be agreed with.

Martin, you right, a sustainable lifestyle is of importance. The problems come with finding agreements on exactly what that might be for everyone. We can't wait for governments or corporations to settle the matter. It's up individuals, families and groups to develop their own sustainable lifestyles.

 

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Permalink Reply by Martin Euser on August 17, 2011 at 3:30pm

As a final note concerning sustainability, I like to mention the possibilities of business innovation mentioned in the book Natural Capitalism. Four strategies are dealt with:

1. Radical resource productivity

2. Biomimicry : waste is food. Recycle, reuse materials.

3. Service and flow economy. Lease products as services.

4. Investing in natural capital

 

Companies are increasingly using and considering these strategies to achieve sustainability and still make a profit.

A lot of research on this is still necessary and going on.

 

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Permalink Reply by Michael A. Williams on August 17, 2011 at 11:33pm

Martin, those are all good strategies and let's hope more companies, big, medium and small, will take them into consideration.

Joe, I was using the term "metaphysical people" in a general way for the sake of quick communication here. These posts are not meant to be well researched articles to be published in journals and what not, although if a person wants to put in the time and dedication for that, fine.

Obviously, there are a multitude of various degrees and levels of development of anyone into the metaphysical/spiritual arena. And, not all think and feel alike. As you well know, it is not a monolithic "group think" field, by any means.

I don't have the time to go into depth on any of this, perhaps you do. But, what is this "something" that "one comes to know that is only speculated by others?" And, what "others" are you referring to? Politicians? Public social figures? Certain metaphysical philosophers?

Perhaps other members here get the jest of your question and can answer it.

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