Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Hari Menon on January 19, 2013 at 12:02pm

Dear Jessica ,

            Briefly and loosely put the Etheric is the plane into which the subtle body attains when the physical body is cast off . The Astral is also a plane into which the physical body graduates into once it is cast off - the basic difference is in the sects - Most religions use the word Astral body or Subtle body etc but I do believe it is the Theosophists who formally gave the name Etheric to this plane (I am not so very clear on this point - maybe theosophists would be able to validate it ). As a plane the Astral has many subsidiary areas (of vibration ?) Like the psychic and the thought world and the world of images and the world of symbols (man made ) and the world of Divine symbols and then the world of universal symbols . I guess if the word etheric can be used instead of astral the same would be the result . In India many English commentators on the Vedas use the word Ether for Aakasha or Space also . I guess it depends on how you look at it and which word you would prefer .

How consciousness behaves in each of the above different areas is quite a large subject - because in short the astral portion is what is normally considered the Mind in the Vedas - and would embrace things like Premonitions, coincidences, Materialization, Elementalism , Shadows , Psychic Abilities,Seeing inside ones own body , Seeing smelling and hearing things which are in remote places , Clairaudience (ability to give visions of oneself to another ), Travel in the chakras of Earth,Water,Fire and Air  ie.1 to 4 Yogic Chakras , Ordinary Psychology and Physico Psychology are also within this scope ,, Area of Madness and Shadows, Magic both higher and lower (by control of the senses) . So it is in a way much bigger than the ordinary world that we are in - the Intellect is also subtle but even bigger , but more calmer being knowledge based but much more stronger since Will , Agency ,Action and Ego (empirical) are involved is of a bigger ambit . No point dwelling on these aspects - glimpses will be got by an aspirant for his /her edification and one moves on . One cannot get Yogic powers or all the above powers in all the areas of the mind or intellect , a person only realizes those powers which are needed for his sustenance after realization according to his balance karmas till his body falls off , So the Yogic powers in realized saints are different depending on their way of living after realization . Which is why it is not advisable to go after yogic powers as one will get intimation only when one is realized or as good as realized .

Astral is - Mind based powers

Intellect or Causal is - Knowledge based powers .

                In Both it is our senses or intellect which brings the article or person to us .

   There are millions of types of the above two powers and are known as Aiswarya , or Riddhis, being the sub of the main Siddhis (as enunciated in the Yoga Sastras) . Siddhis are main Divisions - Riddhis are the sub of the main and are ordinarily the working ones for a living .

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Hari Menon on January 19, 2013 at 10:18pm

Dear Jessica,

        We tend to equate the Etheric body with energy etc since the solidity of the physical is missing. It is subtler and is the "Person'' within even when we have bodies . It is inherent in our person which includes the physical body - since our conditioning to the physical body in consciousness is what imparts "Form'' to the Etheric body . You cannot limit the Etheric body to only energy link ups since the physical body is insentient - it is the etheric that animates the physical body . The mind is the "Brain'' of the etheric body and the Various centres of powers or Chakras are the organs (there are many nadis flowing out from the chakras which normally people are familiar with - the main Nadis or major centres of Power are like Roundabouts where all roads meet) . Corresponding to our various internal organs there are other centres of power which control the liver , lungs etc etc and they are subsidiaey and connected to the main chakras by Nadis (which are channels through which Prana flows , or Chi or the life force whatever you may call it ) . NOw the subtle body consists of Light, Energy and movement - The major thing that provides the so called "inner world'' is the impressions or vasanas that we have in memory - so In a way it is this world that we see and understand when in the astral plane , Each memory or impression within us is residing as a "Feeling'' consisting of the the impressions of the 5 senses of knowledge (Smell, Taste, Sight, Touch and sound) . What esentially happens is in the astral once we "Enter'' a feeling - the whole world residing in memory unfolds (ie. entering one impression is enough to unfold the full inner world in an instant ). The Intellect is the "Astral Sky '' in which we see objects of knowledge (or the Astral world ) and the Sight sound colour etc (ie,images are due to the mind ) and Illumination of the whole inner world is our own Light , that which we are (in a reflected manner of speaking ) . This is synonymous with the dream state wherein everything has name and form as in the waking state due to our conditioning with the body consciousness in wakining (or Empirical Ego)  . We carry residual of the impressions of the body consciousness into the astral or dream state which is why we "Think'' we see in Dream - but actually we do not see per se in Dream - It is consciousness which sees everything within which is held our rememberance of the conditioning of the waking state - it fades and comes back st times which is when we get a feeling of infinity etc - in Dream is ia as if we "enter'' from the astral sky (within which we behold the inner world ) into a body which we intuit as "ourselves'' and then enjoy dream - which is why we see objects within us or the dream world within us and then sort of manifest within that and then enjoy dream . These are all coordinated by the mind .

Hope I have been helpful - another thing is the body of ours in the astral body is the sum total of out feelings both good and bad. Since if you observe closely in waking that Touch is translated into feeling within us so it is sort of the ''skin'' or body of the astral portion of ours .

Jessica I would not in what sense your commentator has used the two words whether interchangeably or exclusive of each other - The system that I am more familiar with is the following

Sthoola Shariram (Gross - Physical Body ) Sookshma Shariram ( Subtle Body ) and Karana Shariram ( Body of Cause or Seed Body ) . Each succeeding Body is subtler than the preceding body and they correspond in order to the Waking ,Dream and State of Deep sleep . In the first we see ourselves as a small object within the world and the world as much bigger than us , In the second we see the world within us and in the third there is neither world or universe and we are infinite and formless . 

It is my experience that if one sticks to the word Astral (as in the English language) it does not afford a proper scope for the proper understanding and conception of the subtle worlds - the word is quite limiting in scope and so does not hold that many other concepts within it - unless you rework the popular notions of the word astral so as to give it the required subtlety to include the Dream State in toto , Mind, Prana and Karma Vasanas within it . As for the word Ether it is slightly more subtle than Astral - but gain its understanding has to be reworked in such a manner that it approximates Space in which case the extent of Ether is got but again the body is not explained in terms of its Constituents - just as the word Human would embrace - Man and woman of the species in the physical , and their various limbs and movements, and the fact of their being animated ,Bipedness , reasoning etc - but would not include the Subtle body unless its ambit is reworked to include the Subtle body - in which case the physical attributes will "Fall off from the human being concept " as the other is subtler the inccidence on our knowledge and consciousness would be the subtle knowledge and the physical attributes would arise only by inference , ie we would have to make an effort to ascertain the Human being idea from the Subtle Body . 

In the reverse case if we define or erroneously understand in our knowledge (or consciuosness) the usage Human being to INCLUDE the ideas of Subtle body and Causal body we will have problem in understanding progressivly more subtle concepts since every time we think of the subtle body we will limit it to the human bodies mental image we have in our mind and knowledge - same for mind and intellect etc . Nothing is possible if the mental image of the body crops up when reading or thinking of the subtler aspects of being . Common usage and way of thinking is not possible in Metaphysics , as it is concerned with the Truth only and - every word has a word Idea which has to be understood as it was , not as we want - since each word is there because of the existence of that Phenomena or truth - otherwise words would be false and meaningless . There is a "correction'' to our existing knowledge that is required - in Metaphysics ,Otherwise we will have cross consciousness and mix the gross with the subtle and behave like wise bringing misery to ourself and our actions .

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Hari Menon on January 21, 2013 at 2:47am

Dear Jessica ,

          In a manner of speaking out of body experiences may be termed as taking place in the Astral world . Jessica in embodied people who have disembodied experiences , there is no separation from the causal body - there is a temporary dislocation of consciousness into the dream world , this happens in cases of extreme trauma, sometimes in cases of anasthetics wearing off after a surgery, or sometimes when a surgery is going on the subtle body detaches itself and you may see yourself being operated upon but not feel anything, these are automatic sue to the pressures on the body . In meditation it is intentional and it can happen and sometimes before you sleep you will feel a "jerk'' as if you will fall off - this has to be understood as the mind attaining freedom from the physical body and expanding into the subtle or astral world - it is possible to exploit this ''jerk'' to do astral travel (of course - you will be in consciousness and ''thinking'' and "feeling'' of travelling actually you do not travel per se the scenery moves as if the a large screen is being moved - it is this which makes you think you are travelling but you are not .  Jessica Astral is the separation temporarily (in case of embodied people) from the Physical body not the causal body - the causal body as I wrote previously is higher than the Astral and permeates both the astral and the physical so in a way you are still inside of yourself . Sometimes a person who has blacked out may be conscious and aware of the physical body bu cannot move even an eyelid , the person is "awake'' inside with full knowledge but cannot jump out yet is disembodied yet is tethered to the body - and will hear and see the relatives around him and them speaking and understand what they are saying , but cannot communicate back to them that they are fine and nothing is there to worry - this type of separation takes place in the intellect and is closer to death - the relatives will see only a dead body , the unconscious person will however see everyone and hear and understand everything  plus know the malfunctioning body but will be unable to open even the eyelid . This is a highly recuperative and rejuvenating state and the memory remains forever ., this takes place totally in thought only . Wise men who are realized do not do astral trave they have no minds , the mind is required for this -but they can by thought (provided they have the intellect) do the same - think of a place and you will be there and see sights in consciousness . A kind of being here and being there at the same time . This is also available in higher meditations as an experience to firm up by knowledge - it is not a permanent state and relates to finitude .

We can only separate from the causal body through knowledge alone . The causal body is the cause for the dream body and the dream body is the cause for the physical body . To get rid of causal body is to get rid of the consciousness that one has I AM the physical body and also the I AM the mind and subtle body and also I KNOW THAT I AM . It should not be mixed up with the declaration of some realized people who say I AM THAT I AM . because the the latter is a way of putting it and they actually have merged the "This'' in "That" or as in Western Theosophy  the ''Thou ,Thee or Thine to That  ''.

The I know that I am is nevertheless a very high stage corresponding to "I EXIST" - it is the step to transcending the body and dream and sleep consciousness and then one just IS . nothing to say as there is no other person . You see words sometimes take away the charm in knowledge !!.    

You have to make good of the remembrance of the out of body experience you have had and transmute it to wisdom or knowledge - never crave for the experience and as your knowledge increases it becomes more and more frequent . Your mind is your greatest friend it can show you many wonderful things , to hate the mind is to hate yourself and to admitting that you hate a part of yourself - it has to be treated cleverly and enticed away like a child sometimes with love , sometimes with knowledge sometimes by going with it (whenever not harm full) and sometimes by berating it !!!. 

I hope you will one day laugh that you ever thought of yourself as the body and all the while was the self !! and the troubles that you had to endure due to a wrong and fanciful notion - it is benediction and entierly life sustaining .

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Hari Menon on January 22, 2013 at 1:41am

The empirical Ego is by birth endowed by the Three fold nature of Sattwa, Rajas and Tamas - the real Self which we all are is pure and devoid of Nature and is actually a witness which pervades everything else as it is the non dual state (I am giving you an analysis from the Non Dual state which may not be applicable to the modes or methods of reasoning employed for systems of thought relevant to Duality or Vishista Advaita since they include dissertations on Advaita based on examples from the Epics and may not be very familiar with your approach ) .In any case both Dvaita and Vishistadvaita lead to Advaita proper in later stages so actually no harm is there in following Duality or other methods like even Classical Yoga proper or Samkhy or Raja yoga only thing is that all merge in Knowledge in the higher stages .Therir practice and methods of reasoning are valuable in understanding Advaita since a keen and one pointed intellect is the result , which is required to assimilate Advaita .

Now inherently the empirical ego has the three natures within itself from birth since we are born into nature . But of the three Satvic,Rajasic and Tamasic (all these together are known as Ashudda Sattwa in Advaita ). So the Empirical existence that we call "I'' is on its own Ashudda Satwa which implies that the Empirical Ego is actually Shudda Satwa before birth but acquires the other tendencies during and after birth over the years . So what exactly the aim is - is to reduce and eliminate Tamas and Rajas completely whereby only Sattwa is left . Now the thing of it is that both Rajas (Action) Tamas(Ignorance) are not native to the Ego and hence can be "removed'' by appropriate reasoning and practices - but Satwa is the nature of the Self which is (really ourself but we cannot be both subject and object at the same time , since the person wanting to know is different from the thing to be known - we have to understand this thing very clearly and have the firm Idea that we are ALREADY the sell and what is wanted to be known if an evidence - then it can only be known by an agent which is the Empirical Ego and not the real self ). So essentially the empirical ego is a phenomena which takes place in consciousness automatically any Name or Form is manifested - in other words it is a reflection of the self in the Intellect (or Ignorance as the Intellect is also known as) . So it is eternal and can be known even whilst embodied through the intellect . This pure reflection is the one we all attain to on realization and this Shudda Satwa is also Known as Kutastha Chaitanya (or that which is inherent ). The impure Ego containing all the three natures is called "Chidabhasa" and also as "Bhanam"  Chdabasa = Chit or intelligent light , Abhasa = Fake or anomaly . Bhanam = Reflection . The main thing to understand here is that the Real Self is consciousness and so its reflection occurs in the Intellect or Ignorance and due to its source being the witnessing self it illuminates whatever is there in the intellect - just as the sun illuminates objects at daytime , but neither are conscious , but within us since the Witness also pervades everything and is conscious everything appears conscious to us . In truth if you examine what I have written very carefully you will find that - it resembles an infinite dream state with extreme lucidity and continuity consisting of many minds and intellects seggregated by the effect of name and form or body consciousness . The whole thing is made simple if you can get to shift your knowledge from the consciousness that you have to the consciousness that you are not the body - but reasoning and verification alone will give you the sufficient impetus to  correct the present notion . It is quite hard , yet achievable and does not preclude a life in the body . The astral plane is a watered version of the Waking state and so the ego with which (or the sense of "I saw a dream"' or "I am seeing" (in dream) ) you are saddled gives you form in the astral . It is also ashudda and is subtle that is all . After all its genisis is the ego . Deha Adyasa is the main evil otherwise everything is ok with everyone . The superimposition on our consciousness (which is very subtle and all pervading) of the body attributes is to be reasoned away with still the pure I is gained to . The ''I'' is a feeling within us which we have to enter and "Deconstruct" by reasoning - In fact we Identify say when we are older though we say ''I'', me,myself and mine , ours, them etc - it is all attached with the I - this I consists of our life and experiences of objects which we have made into knowledge and stored as a feeling in one bundled concept of "i" . anything and everything we have come across in life is bundled into this feeling of "I Am" ness . The funny thing is how ego expands with material knowledge - you have toys at childhood given to you and it becomes part of your ego and you identify yourself with it and do not share or give it to another - it has become you , you go to college or shool and identify the effort and knowledge gaoned as yourself though at the time of actually enjoying it they were just Objects and never part of you , so in this way you can "cut off'' the objects which you have in consciousness Egoized and thin the ego down and the results are immediate - peace , happiness, and divine qualities , understanding will all shine , take the car or kettle or TV you brought and in a few years time you will have it as part of you , why create problems based on objects = you will be aware when you buy a thing for your children or for yourself that it is not you and if someone uses it or takes it it is not going to hurt you , you have to jealously guard the Ego and shrink it and keep it trim , All this problem happens when a car or a house becomes you a country and religion becomes you , you idebtify with all kinds of groups and institutions andd attavh the institutional ego to your self and consider it as yourself - it is nothing but knowledge of objects- But if you are clever you can still have a car and house and still manage to enjoy things without "adding'' it to your ego you will see things for what they are - after some time this disassociation from objects even as you continue to enjoy them gives peace as consciousness that you are understands and works accordingly . 

I just wrote on an impulse , this much that is all . The Astral (Mind) is to be tackled by reasoning from the intellect otherwise it cannot be controlled . It will maybe oneday make you smile to yourself that at some time in your life due to the vagaries of the mind you were a mother , wife, working woman , an aunt, a sister, a daughter and a granddaughter or a niece all at the same time !!! These rae the moments of true understanding - you can be yourself and yet be a mother all the while knowing that you are yet a higher Tattva .

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Hari Menon on January 22, 2013 at 12:48am

Yes it is also a phenomena like things seen in waking since they are impressions of the waking state , with the only difference that the senses are replaced by the objects of knowledge ie. Smell , Taste, Form, Feeling/Touch and Sound and are enjoyed by the mind , Illuminated by the knowledge of the names of forms and proscribed by the personal Ego . Everything fades with the vanishing of the erroneous conception or our reasoning in waking thet the Objects that we "see" in dream are not EXACTLY the names and forms that we have seen in the waking state . For these are only the impressions based on our credulity and feeling of Trueness or oness of the objects seen in waking with those seen in dream . By reasoning and validation the impinging nature of the objects on consciousness seen in the waking can be reduced in dream , and gradually the dream consciousness will be found to be (bereft of the confusion of the names and forms of the waking state) just a combined consciousness consisting of the Mind,Intellect and Empirical Ego . It is the only way to isolate the consciousness of the self  from all the mess.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Hari Menon on January 22, 2013 at 2:17am

Yes everything that we "experience'' is a phenomena , but that by which we know them is is not a phenomena , it is the basis for the appearance and disappearnce of phenomena . One cannot in a true sense say outright that they do not exist , which is why they are called as Appearances or the play of consciousness on the senses . They are there as long as we have the necessary adjuncts to experience them and vanish when the intruments of perception are no more . But words are the only means of knowledge between people , so normally though people use the word that the world exists and do not exist in the opposite case , it is better to have a strict understanding of the word Existence and Phenomena . Since phenomena is subject to a lot of other things in order to experience it is a limited thing whereas Existence is a more pure concept devoid of divisons . It is these which help us understand the world and ourselves and life and living . You cannot have Existence and non existence side by side , as with knowledge and ignorance or even consciousness and non consciousness - so naturally  the contradictions have to reconciled within us in relation to as between the words and their meanings and between the words them selves and between the meanings themselves . If this is done carefully then things become easy and it is not an interminable thing - once the knack is got it inheres in the consciousness and becomes automatic . 

• ▶ Reply