Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Capt. Anand Kumar on January 15, 2012 at 8:19pm

I just don't see how one can examine reincarnation without examining time itself.

Perfect. The way to go.

ModeratorPermalink Reply by Deb on January 17, 2012 at 10:57am

Al said:

. . . One thing I stopped engaging in when I left Fundamentalist Christianity: trying to prove to others that my beliefs are the right beliefs. . . .  

. . . I happen to beleive in reincarnation. Don't really care if anyone else does or not. Either I'll be back or I won't be. How much control do I really have over that?"

Al, I so agree.  I love to speculate about it, talk about it, read and learn, but, like you, I gave up trying to defend my position about that -  and many other things, too - a long time ago.  I tend to believe in reincarnation because I believe in a soul that lives on after our physical death.  And having just one lifetime to get things right just seems ridiculous to me.

No, that's not very scientific, but it's based on personal experiences, and applying some mental power to things I've read, plus those experiences.  I leave open the possibility that there is more to the whole thing and that with further enlightenment or more just information, I might revise or clarify my notions on reincarnation.  

It's an interesting subject, as is the subject of time, whatever it is.  Sometimes thinking about it (time) makes my brain feel turned inside out!  But in the final analysis, I am left with right now.  I have to try to do the best I can right now, in this moment, this hour, this day, with the people I am walking this walk with.  And sometimes that is challenge enough!

Permalink Reply by Gerry Kiffe on January 15, 2012 at 11:48pm

OK, fair enough Joe.  So you want to apply a scientific test for verification.  Almost all philosophical statements and metaphysical premises cannot be proven immediately.  That does not mean they cannot be proven.  What if you  were to rise in consciousness to a plane where you stayed completely awake through the death state into the next life time?  This would provide existential proof, of sorts.

We have many such accounts:  Read the Bhagavad Gita for example.

Because the proof of one individual cannot be entirely conclusive due to the fact that it must now be repeated independently by others.  This leads to the current discussion I started in the SD this weekend where the process of verification is explained.  So come join us over there for a moment for more on that subject.  (How is that for discussion participant stealing!)

If we demand immediate proof for any metaphysical statement to be true we short circuit the search for truth.  So in philosophy and most certainly in Theosophy we take these premises as assumptions and march in the direction of what appears to be most true and keep moving until we find it.  Who cares what a person believes?  A belief is just momentary appraisal.  Which direction is the investigation going is far more interesting.

Therefore I think it is a bit unfair to say belief in reincarnation for most individuals is blind. To state such a belief is flying in the face of conventional thinking so most people who hold to reincarnation have actually thought about it.

I think we could both agree that one would need to reach a certain level of enlightenment to KNOW that reincarnation is true.  But that does not mean one cannot use it as a working proposition to live by.

Permalink Reply by William John Meegan on January 16, 2012 at 3:42am

Joe::

You basically hit the nail on the head, so to speak, PROOF is the essence of that which he or she that KNOWS cannot produce with the human vernacular..We have all experience trying to convey something and lost for words: however, those that KNOW cannot be persuaded otherwise.  It is paradoxical that those that KNOW are seen as believers not KNOWERS.  We all live in a devilish world.

It was not difficult I would imagine for Einstein to realize that time and space worked together seeing that TIME can not exist without SPACE and vice versa: SPACE cannot exist without TIME. Motion pictures (movies) got it right: 24 frames per second; thus TIME is a continueous flow of snapshots and it places thought into a linear mode.  Contemplating TIME from this vantage point tends to negate the concepts of TIME & SPACE.  For if TIME is nothing more that the continuous flow of snapshot ideas coming from the soul/psyche then where is SPACE?  Is SPACE nothing more than the depth perception imbued into that continuous flow of snapship ideas?  If, therefore, TIME cannot exist without SPACE and SPACE cannot exist without TIMEeach of us in our own way lives outside of the TIME/SPACE continuum.

If each person is a world unto him or herself, would not the foreward march of TIME begin anew for each individual?  Thus, TIME cannot be a factor in the contemplative studies on reincarnation if we consider the whole of humanity in its stream; however, from an individual perspective TIME would be a great tool in understanding reincarnation..

Permalink Reply by Janet G. on January 14, 2012 at 4:56pm

I believe in reincarnation..and this is my theory on it:
Life is nothing but a big classroom...We are here to learn. I think we have to go through many cycles, "loops", of life..its a progress we have to go through to get to the next level..and the next ..and the next..ect. til we are One with the All (God,Self,Goddess..ect..ect..insert what you believe) then we get to jump off the merry-go-round and be part of service to others and not self..I will not pretend to know how long or how many times this takes,I think its different for every soul.

We are never to old to learn..and we learn from the time we are born til we die..we learn from heartbreak,happiness,shock,fear..all emotions..and all of these things happen in lots of different situations in life..we have mountains to climb,hills to run over,cracks in the road to jump..it could be a big thing that you have to learn, to overcome or get past, in this life,that sets you on that hike up the biggest mountain you have ever seen..and once you reach the top (if you reach the top).. You have over come that certain lesson or passed the test,so to speak...and I don't think you have to deal with that certain lesson again...UNLESS you forget what that lesson taught you..then you will have to re-learn it all over...as in, go through it, in one way or another,again and again til the right answer "sticks".

IMO..I don't think this can happen ALL in one life time...there may be that rare soul that can..but I don't know....all anyone can do is speculate.
I also believe,as we are learning our lessons..we are also here to help teach the "grade" below us,the less advanced,how to pass their tests..and climb their mountains,jump their cracks in the road. (if they are willing to let us or not is another thing..we ALL have free will and can take the easy or hard road in life)
I do not believe we can do this all alone..we have to have others to be our "friends and foes" to learn these lessons in life and/or lives. We have tragedies in our lives so we can learn to appreciate the good we have..and vice versa. If you never have anything bad happen in your life..how can you KNOW to appreciate the good you have,or will have? There has to be a little bad happen,so you can understand joy/good/happiness and appreciate it.. the yin yang effect..balance.

And of course I believe the people in our lives, that help us through the good and bad,no matter what part they play, is all apart of this Karma contract (as I like to call it) I think you make a pact to be in a persons life or play a part of a lesson..before you are ever born (again..lol) so you can keep progressing to the next level..whatever that may be...I also believe there are many ways it all can come out..because we have free will...
So..what I am saying is..what we don't get or learn in this life..we keep making the loop til we get it..and eventually we will "get it" ALL...I certainaly dont know what the ALL is and I suspect I wont, till I get there.

I don't know if any of this made sense to anyone..but I really tried the best I could to put this together that made some type of sense,outside my own head..lol..so forgive me if I lost anyone along the way...I am learning..that's why I am here. :)

Peace and Love to you all!

Permalink Reply by Gerry Kiffe on January 14, 2012 at 7:47pm

You make many great points. What a waste to have so much to learn, so much to love, so much to appreciate and only one short little life time to do this. 

We watch all the other cycles of nature around us and see things and life coming in and out of existence.  So it does seem to have a natural logic to it.

Gardeners know all about reincarnation.

Permalink Reply by Janet G. on January 15, 2012 at 2:28am

Good point about the Gardens..what would a garden be without a few good bugs,bad bugs,worms and water?

nothing..because it would cease to exist..lol...that goes along with my point in needing friends and foes to help move you along.

Also..there is so much to learn to become "all you can be" in life ..or if you prefer your highest potential as a soul...How can you get it right with just one cycle? I don't think you can do it, in just one lifetime..imo.

I know one thing..all I want to do is improve and progress for the better as life passes..or lives..Even if that means falling down time and time again,til you get it right and can move on..then I'm all for it..yes,it hurts sometimes,but life ain't a bed of roses..the most important thing about those falls,is that you get back up and learn from it! What is so crazy is that you don't realize that its a test/lesson, til after the fact, that that fall was put there to make you a better person in the future,to know the right way to avoid it next time it comes around...I am so curious as to what the next phase will be! I pray every night for discernment on everything I see,hear and touch...so if I don't get it right the first time..maybe I will the next time. (figures crossed..lol) It is so hard when you find out that history has been re-written(imo) so many times to suit an agenda or two or three..that you don't know what to believe anymore...all you can go on is your gut instinct and logic..and I think that comes from things you have learned and lived in the past and/or past lives...and maybe a little nudge onto the right path from a guide or two..but that is a whole other subject on its own.

Permalink Reply by Gerry Kiffe on January 15, 2012 at 2:15pm

I was thinking about all the deciduous plants that seemingly die back and return to life each year and the bulbs that are hidden undergroup and jump back in the spring and things like that.  They all seem to be symbols of reincarnation.

Permalink Reply by Janet G. on January 16, 2012 at 3:00pm

I'm right there with you,Al! :) I am glad you got what I was saying..it is hard for me sometimes to say what I mean,in a way that makes sense outside of my own head..lol
Thank you for commenting...and letting me know that you understood what I was saying.
Peace to you.

Permalink Reply by Capt. Anand Kumar on January 16, 2012 at 7:24am

In this debate about the reincarnation, it is not yet clarified what do we mean by it, transformation of the body or transmigration of the soul (if it exists). It has been taken for granted that everyone understands reincarnation as the re-birth of the same individual after each death. Let us explore this further.

Every death or birth is an event linked by time in its linear progress. Stanzas of Dzyan tell us that "Time was not", and at the same time use the word eternity, which could be an infinite duration of time, or an existence outside of time. Going by that would it be safe to conclude that the existence outside of time is real and existence within time where it is likely to flow in a linear fashion is illusion? Maya?

Should it be so, how real would then be events linked in a linear fashion? Time and again, several scriptures from Kashmir Shaivism, to Yoga Vashistha to VOS, teach us to become independent of time. Most yogic practices are designed to achieve that goal. Why do we have to insist upon reincarnation being real which keeps us within the bondage of time?

 

 

Permalink Reply by William John Meegan on January 16, 2012 at 11:04am

WOW Capt Kumar you certainly put a lot to think about into a brief post.

Of course I can only reply to how I understand the process: that is with anybody's post.

There is a difference between the transmigation and tranmutation of the soul/psyche.  Transmigation of the soul is of course what it called reincarnation and transmutation of the soul/psyche is obtaining a new reason  d'etre while still in the same incarnation.  Whether most people realize it or not transmutation of the soul/psyche is what everybody is actually striving for; whereas, transmigation of the soul/psyche is a given.  I look at the transmigation of the soul/psyche like the flower blooming in the spring time similar to the analogies others have given.  The birth of a child is a beautiful thing: it is a new flower on earth for its potentiality is before it; however, too often "the promise is greater than the performance" as Shakesphear would say.  This last is what causes suffering and pain, which in turn forces the soul/psyche to seek a higher spiritual calling: unwittingly seeking a better life: a transmutation of the soul/psyche: i.e. a new reason d'etre.  All the soul/psyche is requesting from the spiritual forces in creation is too give it a new reason d'etre: there is simply no other purpose for religion.

Now, I understand the word ETERNAL to represent the ever present NOW in the empyrean, which can not change according to the laws of time; whereas, the word INFINITY has to do with the time/space continuum.  Too often we humans are caught up in semantics and that is why the human vernacular is a poor medium to express the inexplicable.

The soul/psyche cannot escape the time/space continuum on any permanent basis because it is the only medium in which it can express itself.  The time/space continuum is the animation and concretization of the soul/psyche's interpretation of the empyrean.  As you know human express themselves in one-liners (sentences).  It is not possible to interpret the empyrean because you would have to express it in a letter as the ancient did in the first letter of Genesis: BETH; all esle would be redundancy.  Thus each individual is locked so-to-speak inside of its own narrow interpretation of divinity and the spiritual forces in creation has every right to assume the soul/psche is happy with its lot in life.

In the collective unconscious or empyrean the ego is without any authority whatsoever and is destroyed at death.  This is what causes the everlasting loop of reincarnation.  The lost of ego mandates that the soul/psyche reincarnate.  Without ego there is absolutely no desire for action.  Now here of course I am speaking from the perspective of the Hermetic Science not from the subjective state of the Animal Envoy, which desires to escape time and it does precisely that.  Look at the aboriginese their souls/psyches have been absorbed by the collective unconscious.  There is nothing wrong with that if that is what you consciously want but our insane asylums are full of people that forced that question.

You mention that several scriptures (I assume from the Hindu texts) says to become independent of time.  Well if you have a cursory understanding of the Judeao Christian scriptures you will see that the Old and New Testaments have opposing points of view on theology.  You may see the analogy I am getting at here.  The Chinese have two opposing points of view: I Ching and the Tao te Ching: one is to live in the material world and the other is to live a spiritual life.  I can only assume that all major religions have this dialectic argument going on in their theologies.

Permalink Reply by Capt. Anand Kumar on January 16, 2012 at 8:07pm

Thanks William. As you have guessed correctly I have had no exposure to the scriptures of Judeo-Christian traditions. I read all your posts with great interest to learn about those.

If we consider reincarnation as transmigration of soul, then certain characteristics of souls have to be taken into consideration. Indian thought system believes soul to be matter or substance, therefore subject to the laws governing matter. Matter can not only change form (reincarnate) but also convert itself into energy if conditions are right. In both types of transformation of matter, time is an important factor. It is only when matter becomes pure motion that it would become independent of time. This pure motion, IMHO is what HPB describes as Absolute Abstract Motion.

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