Who Is Jesus [Christ]!? - Theosophy.Net2024-03-29T16:01:04Zhttps://theosophy.net/forum/topics/who-is-jesus-christ?commentId=3055387%3AComment%3A31757&feed=yes&xn_auth=noPersonally I've been interest…tag:theosophy.net,2010-10-18:3055387:Comment:323222010-10-18T12:48:44.716ZArthur E Gregoryhttps://theosophy.net/profile/ArthurEGregory
Personally I've been interested or shall I say a little intrigued about the hypothesis that Jesus was a "magician" even though that hasn't been a core belief of mine but I did find the following:<br></br>
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A professor Morton Smith suggests:<br></br>
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(1) Almost all current accounts of Jesus are based on the canonical gospels written by his followers.<br></br>
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(2) A historian should ask what those who were not his followers thought about him.<br></br>
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(3) Evidence from the gospels and…
Personally I've been interested or shall I say a little intrigued about the hypothesis that Jesus was a "magician" even though that hasn't been a core belief of mine but I did find the following:<br/>
<br/>
A professor Morton Smith suggests:<br/>
<br/>
(1) Almost all current accounts of Jesus are based on the canonical gospels written by his followers.<br/>
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(2) A historian should ask what those who were not his followers thought about him.<br/>
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(3) Evidence from the gospels and other sources shows they thought him a magician.<br/>
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(4) What they meant by “magician” must be determined by comparison of Jesus with other men of his time who were so called.<br/>
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(5) This comparison reveals a social type which Jesus resembled; it also yields a plausible account of his career.<br/>
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(6) This account of his career is confirmed by comparison of the gospels with magical texts found mainly in papyri contemporary with the gospel manuscripts; in point after point the gospels’ accounts agree with the magicians’ claims and prescriptions.<br/>
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Source is an article by Morton Smith:<br/>
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<a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/1978/dec/21/in-quest-of-jesus/" target="_blank">http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/1978/dec/21/in-quest-of-je...</a><br/>
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Also a bowl was discovered a few years ago from a marine archeological exploration of what was a palace of Cleopatra in Alexandria that bears an inscription they believe could be the earliest reference to Christ:<br/>
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<i>A team of scientists led by renowned French marine archaeologist Franck Goddio recently announced that they have found a bowl, dating to between the late 2nd century B.C. and the early 1st century A.D., that is engraved with what they believe could be the world's first known reference to Christ</i>.<br/>
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Source:<br/>
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<a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26972493/" target="_blank">http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26972493/</a><br/>
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Here's a counter to the archeological find questioning the inscription itself:<br/>
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<a href="http://www.mrnewsbreaker.com/jesus-the-magician-archaeological-find-unlikely-as-earliest/" target="_blank">http://www.mrnewsbreaker.com/jesus-the-magician-archaeological-find...</a><br />
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An excerpt reads:<br />
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This is similar to the impact of what is now known as the Paris Magical Papyrus, dated to about 300 CE. It describes an elaborate exorcism ritual, which begins, “I adjure you by the god of the Hebrews,” and then lists a number of mystical names, of which Jesu is the first. The adjuration continues with numerous references to biblical events and persons, some of which are garbled. The point for New Testament studies is the confirmation that in Egypt about 150 years after the resurrection, Jesus was known as a successful exorcist and called “the god of the Hebrews.” I came across this site recen…tag:theosophy.net,2010-10-17:3055387:Comment:322842010-10-17T04:57:55.324ZArthur E Gregoryhttps://theosophy.net/profile/ArthurEGregory
I came across this site recently and it calls to mind that the eminent scholar and Theosophist GRS Mead had written about many years ago and it does have to do with the topic!<br></br>
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Jesus ben Pandera:<br></br>
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<i>The Jewish record of Jesus ben Pandera, hostile to him as are all Jewish accounts of christs who failed, is preserved in a book commonly called Sepher Toledoth Yeshu ("Book of the Lineage of Jesus"), extant in several recensions, which differ in various details. The best summary…</i>
I came across this site recently and it calls to mind that the eminent scholar and Theosophist GRS Mead had written about many years ago and it does have to do with the topic!<br/>
<br/>
Jesus ben Pandera:<br/>
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<i>The Jewish record of Jesus ben Pandera, hostile to him as are all Jewish accounts of christs who failed, is preserved in a book commonly called Sepher Toledoth Yeshu ("Book of the Lineage of Jesus"), extant in several recensions, which differ in various details. The best summary of the story known to me is by Dr. Martin A. Larson, in his The Essene-Christian Faith (New York, Philosophical Library, 1980), pp. 151 ff. All versions of the story affirm that this Jesus really performed miracles, having learned the secret name of Yahweh, which enabled him to raise the dead, etc., and lost his power when he was in some way deprived of either his recollection of the name or of the parchment on which he had laboriously copied the four letters of the name and which he then inserted in an incision in his thigh. It is a reasonable inference that a story so precisely dated and, in its essentials, circumstantial is based on an actual occurrence, despite the supernatural garnish added to it.</i><br/>
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Here is Mead's introduction to his "Did Jesus Live 100 B.C."?<br/>
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<i>As we have seen already from the evidence of the early Church Fathers, one of the most persistent charges of the Jews against Jesus was that he had learned magic in Egypt. In the Toldoth Jeschu, while we still hear of Jeschu's learning magic in Egypt, the main feature in the story of his acquirement of miraculous power is the robbing of the Shem (the Tetragrammaton or Ineffable Name) from the Temple at Jerusalem by a strange device. The Talmud, however, knows nothing of this robbing of the Shem from the Temple; but in recording the tradition of the bringing of magic out of Egypt it adds details of the means whereby this magic is fabled to have been conveyed out of the country, and in the variants of the story we can trace the evolution of the strange device whereby Jeschu is said in the Toldoth to have outwitted the magic guardians of the Shem.<br/>
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Thus in the Palestinian Gemara we read: "He who scratches on the skin in the fashion of writing is guilty, but he who makes marks on the skin in the fashion of writing, is exempt from punishment. Rabbi Eliezer said to them: But has not Ben Stada brought (magic) spells out of Egypt just in this way?</i><br/>
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Source:<br/>
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<a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.gnosis.org/library/grs-mead/jesus_live_100/ch10.html" target="_blank">http://www.gnosis.org/library/grs-mead/jesus_live_100/ch10.html</a> That's all fine with me.
For…tag:theosophy.net,2010-10-17:3055387:Comment:322812010-10-17T02:23:22.731ZMiracleshttps://theosophy.net/profile/Miracles
That's all fine with me.<br />
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For whatever it's worth, when I came here I merely saw the topic 'Who is Jesus Christ?' and tried to stay on topic about that. From what I read, theosophy was open to a broad understanding or investigation of theology and philosophy (hence 'theosophy'), which would would theoretically include an interesting discussion I could contribute to.<br />
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If I had known my views would not be welcomed here by anyone, I certainly would not have participated at all. Now that this seems…
That's all fine with me.<br />
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For whatever it's worth, when I came here I merely saw the topic 'Who is Jesus Christ?' and tried to stay on topic about that. From what I read, theosophy was open to a broad understanding or investigation of theology and philosophy (hence 'theosophy'), which would would theoretically include an interesting discussion I could contribute to.<br />
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If I had known my views would not be welcomed here by anyone, I certainly would not have participated at all. Now that this seems to be the case, I have no desire or interest in participating where I and/or my views are not welcome or edifying (if this isn't true for some reading this please speak up), and in such case I bid you all a respectful and well-intentioned farewell. There is also the book:
Jame…tag:theosophy.net,2010-10-16:3055387:Comment:322712010-10-16T07:50:19.959ZArthur E Gregoryhttps://theosophy.net/profile/ArthurEGregory
There is also the book:<br />
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James the Brother of Jesus: The Key to Unlocking the Secrets of Early Christianity and the Dead Sea Scrolls by Robert Eisenman<br />
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<a href="http://www.amazon.com/James-Brother-Jesus-Unlocking-Christianity/dp/014025773X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1287215164&sr=1-1#_" target="_blank">http://www.amazon.com/James-Brother-Jesus-Unlocking-Christianity/dp/014025773X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1287215164&sr=1-1#_</a>
There is also the book:<br />
<br />
James the Brother of Jesus: The Key to Unlocking the Secrets of Early Christianity and the Dead Sea Scrolls by Robert Eisenman<br />
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<a href="http://www.amazon.com/James-Brother-Jesus-Unlocking-Christianity/dp/014025773X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1287215164&sr=1-1#_" target="_blank">http://www.amazon.com/James-Brother-Jesus-Unlocking-Christianity/dp/014025773X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1287215164&sr=1-1#_</a> You know I was going to sugge…tag:theosophy.net,2010-10-16:3055387:Comment:322702010-10-16T07:43:24.129ZArthur E Gregoryhttps://theosophy.net/profile/ArthurEGregory
You know I was going to suggest a popular site about the question being discussed here "Who is Jesus?" and it's pretty well known and has been on the History Channel for awhile:<br />
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<a href="http://www.jesusfamilytomb.com/theological_considerations/ascension.html" target="_blank">http://www.jesusfamilytomb.com/theological_considerations/ascension.html</a><br />
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and there are other topics as well.. You can see some short videos and summaries of the issues.
You know I was going to suggest a popular site about the question being discussed here "Who is Jesus?" and it's pretty well known and has been on the History Channel for awhile:<br />
<br />
<a href="http://www.jesusfamilytomb.com/theological_considerations/ascension.html" target="_blank">http://www.jesusfamilytomb.com/theological_considerations/ascension.html</a><br />
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and there are other topics as well.. You can see some short videos and summaries of the issues. You didn't answer any of my q…tag:theosophy.net,2010-10-16:3055387:Comment:322692010-10-16T06:01:47.282ZMiracleshttps://theosophy.net/profile/Miracles
You didn't answer any of my questions.<br />
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Reasoning from the Bible is not tautological since there is solid manuscript evidence for the New Testament, any more so than it would be tautological to quote any other ancient book, many which are assumed factual with much less evidence.<br />
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You even referred to the Sermon on the Mount yourself, which you claim makes Jesus a great example for us. Why can you reference the Bible and I cannot?<br />
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Why do you not welcome other views for discussion, even when…
You didn't answer any of my questions.<br />
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Reasoning from the Bible is not tautological since there is solid manuscript evidence for the New Testament, any more so than it would be tautological to quote any other ancient book, many which are assumed factual with much less evidence.<br />
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You even referred to the Sermon on the Mount yourself, which you claim makes Jesus a great example for us. Why can you reference the Bible and I cannot?<br />
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Why do you not welcome other views for discussion, even when polite?<br />
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Why is vicarious atonement necessarily evil, how do you know this?<br />
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Why won't you explain the reason for your views?<br />
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I'm not trying to attack you or anyone, though you act like that is my intent, and am trying to be as gracious as possible while remaining direct.<br />
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Your view is your own business, as is mine. What's the problem, can't we have a discussion about Jesus Christ on a discussion forum thread that asks who is Jesus Christ? I was going to suggest that t…tag:theosophy.net,2010-10-16:3055387:Comment:322682010-10-16T05:35:29.668ZArthur E Gregoryhttps://theosophy.net/profile/ArthurEGregory
I was going to suggest that the description of James above "He drank neither wine nor strong drink, ate no flesh," may suggest an association with an Essene community or a later Ebionite community which were vegetarian.<br />
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From Epiphanius on the Nazoreans:<br />
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"... but they would not offer sacrifice or eat meat. They considered it unlawful to eat meat or make sacrifices with it."<br />
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<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essenes" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essenes</a>
I was going to suggest that the description of James above "He drank neither wine nor strong drink, ate no flesh," may suggest an association with an Essene community or a later Ebionite community which were vegetarian.<br />
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From Epiphanius on the Nazoreans:<br />
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"... but they would not offer sacrifice or eat meat. They considered it unlawful to eat meat or make sacrifices with it."<br />
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<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essenes" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essenes</a> Thanks for helping me underst…tag:theosophy.net,2010-10-16:3055387:Comment:322662010-10-16T05:02:21.607ZMiracleshttps://theosophy.net/profile/Miracles
Thanks for helping me understand your position better.<br />
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So I have another question then. If Jesus' life is an example for all of us, how is He a good example if He claimed the following amazing things, among many others, that you seem to believe are untrue?<br />
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<i>"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me"</i> (John 14:6).<br />
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<i>"And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world…</i>
Thanks for helping me understand your position better.<br />
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So I have another question then. If Jesus' life is an example for all of us, how is He a good example if He claimed the following amazing things, among many others, that you seem to believe are untrue?<br />
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<i>"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me"</i> (John 14:6).<br />
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<i>"And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was"</i> (John 17:5).<br />
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<i>"Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent"</i> (John 6:28-29).<br />
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<i>"I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins"</i> (John 8:24).<br />
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<i>"And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth"</i> (Matt. 28:18).<br />
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<i>"Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am"</i> (John 8:57-58).<br />
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<i>"Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many"</i> (Matt. 20:28, Mark 10:45).<br />
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<i>"Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also"</i> (John 14:1-3).<br />
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<i>"Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation"</i> (John 5:25-29).<br />
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Then, there is the record in all the gospels of Christ's miracles, apparently many thousands of them, including healing of incurable handicaps and diseases as well as rasing the dead. Even the Jewish Talmud, which speaks blasphemously of Christ, does not deny His many miracles, but simply attributes them to demons. Did you read the article I referenced in a previous post about Christ's miracles and the laws of science, and what they tell us about origins?<br />
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There is solid and abundant documentary evidence that Jesus Christ said the above things and did many genuine miracles. If He said and did them, but His statements and works are not true, then Jesus Christ was either consciously lying and deceiving others, or an insane madman (an unwitting liar), wouldn't you say? How do you say He is such a great example for us if He is a deceiving charlatan or a madman?<br />
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He doesn't seem to be a madman, considering His incredibly wise, consistent statements, such as the 'Sermon on the Mount' you mentioned, and neither is there any record of Him having been proved a liar or of any fault. Moreover, His character has been analyzed thoroughly and found flawless.<br />
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If Jesus Christ is not a knowingly harmful deceiver or a madman, then what He said is true, and we should believe it. It is not reasonable to reject the manuscript evidence that testifies of these things, since it is much stronger than for any document of ancient history.<br />
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Please show me where my reasoning is flawed here, thanks. I consider your answer reason…tag:theosophy.net,2010-10-16:3055387:Comment:322582010-10-16T00:57:11.628ZMiracleshttps://theosophy.net/profile/Miracles
I consider your answer reasonable, from your perspective. I also believe/agree in taking full responsibility for our own actions.<br />
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In the case of vicarious atonement though (again, hypothetically ok?), there is no way to dig oneself out of the mess we are in, for any of us, because that would require attaining a state equivalent to the perfect nature and works of Christ (absolute perfection), for past, present and future. A completely perfect life in motive, thought, word and deed none of us…
I consider your answer reasonable, from your perspective. I also believe/agree in taking full responsibility for our own actions.<br />
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In the case of vicarious atonement though (again, hypothetically ok?), there is no way to dig oneself out of the mess we are in, for any of us, because that would require attaining a state equivalent to the perfect nature and works of Christ (absolute perfection), for past, present and future. A completely perfect life in motive, thought, word and deed none of us has, not even close. Only the insane or masochistic would want our thought life on public display even for our best 24 hour period.<br />
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If indeed there is no vicarious atonement, Christ is not the Creator, and He did not come to give Himself a ransom for many as the Bible states, then of course the death of Christ would cease to have any eternal purpose or meaning as applied to any of us.<br />
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However, and although you did not say anything positive about Jesus Christ, you also did not state any fault in Him that would cause you to have such disdain for Him, even exceeding the evil nature of a Hannibal Lecter. Whether He is God or not, why do you have such repulsion to Jesus Christ, as you have indicated? Do you really find His recorded life, words and death (even if you do not believe in His bodily resurrection) "stupid"? Staying on the topic of Jesus…tag:theosophy.net,2010-10-15:3055387:Comment:322562010-10-15T23:50:28.015ZMiracleshttps://theosophy.net/profile/Miracles
Staying on the topic of Jesus Christ, what is there in His recorded life or actions specifically that you have an issue with, that would cause you to be more ashamed of Him than if your father were Hannibal Lecter? What fault do you find in Him?<br />
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If (hypothetically for the sake of discussion ok?), He died a horrific death in my place and your place to earn a restored, loving relationship with God and moreover eternal life in paradise, would you not consider this sacrifice an act of extreme…
Staying on the topic of Jesus Christ, what is there in His recorded life or actions specifically that you have an issue with, that would cause you to be more ashamed of Him than if your father were Hannibal Lecter? What fault do you find in Him?<br />
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If (hypothetically for the sake of discussion ok?), He died a horrific death in my place and your place to earn a restored, loving relationship with God and moreover eternal life in paradise, would you not consider this sacrifice an act of extreme love, mercy and grace?