Theosophical view about Wicca? - Theosophy.Net2024-03-29T02:37:31Zhttps://theosophy.net/forum/topics/theosophical-view-about-wicca?commentId=3055387%3AComment%3A81556&feed=yes&xn_auth=noHello where as I am a Witch,…tag:theosophy.net,2011-11-23:3055387:Comment:899842011-11-23T05:54:12.061ZDevilwoman - Tammyhttps://theosophy.net/profile/TammyMetrou
<p>Hello where as I am a Witch, I am not Wiccan.</p>
<p>However Wiccan is Neo Pagan, it is a religion and belief system that follows a Crede, and harms none, and really they dont do what you would call Dark , or black magick. That types of magick is actually against the nature of wicca.</p>
<p>Wicca is actually older then Gardners version of it, it is very old, and like all things, new ideology and philosophy is added. Wicca is about earth based beliefs and spirtualism, they meditate, and there…</p>
<p>Hello where as I am a Witch, I am not Wiccan.</p>
<p>However Wiccan is Neo Pagan, it is a religion and belief system that follows a Crede, and harms none, and really they dont do what you would call Dark , or black magick. That types of magick is actually against the nature of wicca.</p>
<p>Wicca is actually older then Gardners version of it, it is very old, and like all things, new ideology and philosophy is added. Wicca is about earth based beliefs and spirtualism, they meditate, and there greetings are Merry Meet,</p>
<p>Well Met, etc. They tend to be positive, and if you want my psychological perspective on it ask me sometime.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Thanks and Blessings Devilwoman</p> On Mercurius (Mercury) … ALCH…tag:theosophy.net,2011-11-22:3055387:Comment:897642011-11-22T23:07:28.234ZChristian von Lahrhttps://theosophy.net/profile/ChristianvonLahr
<p><strong>On Mercurius (Mercury) … ALCHEMY</strong></p>
<p>The alchemical work has three basic stages: the nigredo, the albedo, and the rubedo. It is true that other stages corresponding to nuances of the alchemical process are mentioned in the texts but, although these would be of the utmost importance for an alchemist, they are not so critical for us. The essence of the alchemical movement is contained in the oft-quoted motto: "solve et coagula", "divide and unite." Like the three stages…</p>
<p><strong>On Mercurius (Mercury) … ALCHEMY</strong></p>
<p>The alchemical work has three basic stages: the nigredo, the albedo, and the rubedo. It is true that other stages corresponding to nuances of the alchemical process are mentioned in the texts but, although these would be of the utmost importance for an alchemist, they are not so critical for us. The essence of the alchemical movement is contained in the oft-quoted motto: "solve et coagula", "divide and unite." Like the three stages discussed above, these two movements are essential to the work and comprise cycles that are repeated over and over again, on increasingly subtle levels. Alchemy aimed at the resolution of material and spiritual opposites as conventionally understood. This resolution took place on different levels, corresponding to deepening levels of understanding of the true nature of the alchemical work. At a certain point a mediating term, often under the form of the alchemical Mercurius, would intervene in the process. The ultimate resolution was characterized by a mode of subtle mutual reciprocity and interpenetration in which each term of an opposition entered fully into the being of the other, simultaneously present to the other, transforming and being transformed. <em><strong>This union was frequently imaged as a hieros gamos</strong></em>, and its fruit was the Philosopher's Stone.</p> Blavatsky considered the karm…tag:theosophy.net,2011-11-22:3055387:Comment:900532011-11-22T23:00:22.404ZChristian von Lahrhttps://theosophy.net/profile/ChristianvonLahr
<p>Blavatsky considered the karmic aspect of empirical cycles.</p>
<p><br></br>For the magician, the Self and the World are the same thing. When we try to separate them we get the errors of Science and Religion. The hieros-gamos (or "divine marriage") of alchemy is none other than the marriage of the Sun (the self in the world) and the Moon (the world in the self) -- Shining and reflection, projection and introjection, Yang and Yin. <em><strong>HPB suggests</strong></em> that the Sun and Moon stand…</p>
<p>Blavatsky considered the karmic aspect of empirical cycles.</p>
<p><br/>For the magician, the Self and the World are the same thing. When we try to separate them we get the errors of Science and Religion. The hieros-gamos (or "divine marriage") of alchemy is none other than the marriage of the Sun (the self in the world) and the Moon (the world in the self) -- Shining and reflection, projection and introjection, Yang and Yin. <em><strong>HPB suggests</strong></em> that the Sun and Moon stand for secret planets, but conventionally the Sun stands for revelation via self-expression.</p> Hierogamy, your Holy Marriage…tag:theosophy.net,2011-11-22:3055387:Comment:897632011-11-22T22:53:10.183ZChristian von Lahrhttps://theosophy.net/profile/ChristianvonLahr
<p>Hierogamy, your Holy Marriage, is not exclusive to Wicca. It has similar basis an conneciton with Greek mythology (where its name is derived) Devadasi (Hinduism), Sumerian and Ancient Near East traditions, Alchemy, Tantric Buddhism, Jungian psychology. Paganism may have taken a different direction, Ten thousand years ago, give or take a few, humans first discovered that if you plant a seed in earth, food grows. If a man plants sperm in a woman's womb, an embryo grows.</p>
<p>Hierogamy, your Holy Marriage, is not exclusive to Wicca. It has similar basis an conneciton with Greek mythology (where its name is derived) Devadasi (Hinduism), Sumerian and Ancient Near East traditions, Alchemy, Tantric Buddhism, Jungian psychology. Paganism may have taken a different direction, Ten thousand years ago, give or take a few, humans first discovered that if you plant a seed in earth, food grows. If a man plants sperm in a woman's womb, an embryo grows.</p> I am concurring with Michael…tag:theosophy.net,2011-11-22:3055387:Comment:900512011-11-22T22:44:50.687ZChristian von Lahrhttps://theosophy.net/profile/ChristianvonLahr
<p>I am concurring with Michael A. William's perspectives on Wicca. The modern expression of it does in general differ from its roots, and Wicca itself was not even popularized here in America till the 50's and 60's.</p>
<p>I find that many in the New Age of today will have at least a loose connection to Wicca, but I don't observe that they really understand its history or basis.</p>
<p>I do observe the negative aspects of [magic] being drawn upon as some means of power to give them an edge in…</p>
<p>I am concurring with Michael A. William's perspectives on Wicca. The modern expression of it does in general differ from its roots, and Wicca itself was not even popularized here in America till the 50's and 60's.</p>
<p>I find that many in the New Age of today will have at least a loose connection to Wicca, but I don't observe that they really understand its history or basis.</p>
<p>I do observe the negative aspects of [magic] being drawn upon as some means of power to give them an edge in the modern world, but unfortunately as indicated, the tendency is far greater to the darker aspects of magic. And fortunately, so very few have even a modicum of awareness of what magic is and how it works that I can usually dismiss it as eventual personal self-destruction, and a major waste of said people's lives. Where the positive application might be considered, it tends in observation to be more presentation, than fact.</p>
<p>Because it is, all things considered, too ignorant of the actual workings of magic, and because their connection to Nature also seems thoroughly remiss, it is dismissible as "fad" to my mind, based on the thousands of encounters I've had with these followers ... again, when I say follower, it is most generally a loose association I perceive, and not an understanding. This, too, can be a failing of the current New Age following simply in the sense that any [depth] is not a factor in the belief proclivities; hence, foundation is always questionable.</p>
<p>There are those, as also indicated, who embrace certain magical aspects as a way to wield power, control, and to cope. There are some whom I would say could even become dangerous if they actually knew the foundations of their craft. I use the term "craft" because that is how I observe it being used, something practiced. Almost always there is a pattern in this regard, for those who practice its means do not realize the basic human nature to [copy], this makes their efforts patterned, discoverable and identifiable ... and therefore predisposed to "playing with matches," or "running with scissors" antics.</p>
<p>Those that take this field serious are a concern. They are eventually drawn to use its magical attributes, including the sexual components, as a means ... to be general ... to [control]. Regardless, Wicca draws from a limited set of paints, so its pallet of potential is limited, for any end ̶ never can a complete picture be painted, appreciated, valued or even retained. And, this is my opinion. In fact, all of its attributes are inherently limited. It likely falls on its face when it delves into the psychical senses, as its baseness, and baselessness, can only draw from the lowest of nature, nature(s) and semi-consciousness/consciousness. The idiocy of [these] can only have affect, regardless, on the feeble-minded and highly superstitious (quite similar to how Voodoo, Hoodoo, Santeria started). Those victimized by associated ritual and ceremony, practice and intent, can succeed through a basic defense of [control], although almost ANY focused intent will serve their protective requirements. Most people do not realize, or recognize that the exercise of darker intents, OR forces, are [observable], recognizable and predisposes itself to [attractive] means, which therefore CAN serve to thwart said nefarious efforts. </p>
<p>Like most of those fields that have used [Nature] or negative intentions ceremonially, the effectiveness will be better realized in regions from Mexico down through South America, several Island nations in the Caribbean, Puerto Rico, the Philippines and coastal Africa. This speaks mostly to how these practices came about, from where, and the foundation for their [means].</p>
<p><br/>Those who are drawn to any potential good will lean most likely to New Age, "empowerment", "self-help," "green" and simply Nature. Again, this would be my observation. HOWEVER, the awareness and acceptance of Wicca DOES preclude even these more remote systems of belief towards superstition, and THAT is a foothold that should not be yielded; in fact, it is the ONLY means by which these practices and those other magic-based nature religions, the Voodoo, Hoodoo, Santeria already mentioned, and their variations such as Voodan and Hoodan, can have affect – this change to susceptibility essentially [evolved] in the civilized world, as there was initially a null-effect. I am deliberately withholding some information that is not necessary for general discussion. Note, though, that ALL OF THESE mentioned, and this includes Wicca, have always indicated a neutral means that can be either embraced or practiced to either extreme (this would be its duotheism ̶ much like polar opposites).</p>
<p>I, to conclude, do not make any [direct] connection between Wicca and Paganism.</p>
<p> </p> I'm not a Wiccan, but I do kn…tag:theosophy.net,2011-10-21:3055387:Comment:836222011-10-21T18:17:43.984ZMichael A. Williamshttps://theosophy.net/profile/MichaelAWilliams
<p>I'm not a Wiccan, but I do know something about it and have known many people involved in it. These are ethical people. and as other "Earth Based Religion" folks, are peaceful and practice a nature worship orientation that precludes doing harm to the Earth or to others. It is unfortunate that the group loosely called "Satanists" get mixed up with legitimate Wiccans and Witches.</p>
<p>Of course, there are a few unhinged people in the Wiccan movement, as there are unhinged types in any…</p>
<p>I'm not a Wiccan, but I do know something about it and have known many people involved in it. These are ethical people. and as other "Earth Based Religion" folks, are peaceful and practice a nature worship orientation that precludes doing harm to the Earth or to others. It is unfortunate that the group loosely called "Satanists" get mixed up with legitimate Wiccans and Witches.</p>
<p>Of course, there are a few unhinged people in the Wiccan movement, as there are unhinged types in any spiritual or metaphysical movement, including Theosophy. These people most often get the publicity and are mistakenly seen as representing the vast majority of the movement.</p>
<p>No group sex or actual live ritual sex is practiced by any legitimate Wiccan I've ever heard of. Sex Magick of some form is acceptable, but to be practiced by couples in the privacy of their own homes.</p>
<p>As I mentioned earlier, Blavatsky and the other founders of Theosophy were very Victorian in their attitudes toward Sexuality. Put simply: in modern times, I don't think they are the best models to be looked to for guidance in matters of eroticism, either in our metaphysical/spiritual or personal lives.</p>
<p>Joe mentioned that Blavatsky introduced certain specific Yoga teachings in the ES to counter the the TS sister group, The Golden Dawn's, teachings and practices of ceremonial magick. It is interesting to note, that Aleister Crowley, who was as member of the GD, though not when HPB was alive, went to Southeast Asia to study Buddhist meditation and yoga under his old friend, Allen Bennett.</p>
<p>Bennett was an acknowledged Buddhist and yoga master, studying there for many years. Even Crowley's critics and detractors admit that under Bennett's tutelagem, he became somewhat of an adept himself in certain areas. Crowley then went back and was the one of the first, if not the first, to introduce certain yogic practices into Western Occult and Magick training and practice.</p>
<p>Bringing it back to Wicca, Gerald Gardner was a close friend of Crowley and it's well known he used some of Crowley's ideas and practices, and probably some from the Golden Dawn, in his brew that became Gardnerian Wicca.</p>
Since wicca didn't exist yet…tag:theosophy.net,2011-10-21:3055387:Comment:833242011-10-21T11:49:38.158ZKatinka Hesselinkhttps://theosophy.net/profile/KatinkaHesselink
<p>Since wicca didn't exist yet in Blavatsky's time (or didn't exist in the way it does today), she didn't say anything about it. However, she would consider any ritual sex (actual sex during ritual) a form of black magic. I guess that pretty much answers your question.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Personally what I miss in Wicca is that it doesn't take an ethical stance: you can go both ways with it. </p>
<p>Since wicca didn't exist yet in Blavatsky's time (or didn't exist in the way it does today), she didn't say anything about it. However, she would consider any ritual sex (actual sex during ritual) a form of black magic. I guess that pretty much answers your question.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Personally what I miss in Wicca is that it doesn't take an ethical stance: you can go both ways with it. </p> Hi Lady Line,
I thought I'd…tag:theosophy.net,2011-10-21:3055387:Comment:836172011-10-21T05:52:19.155ZTruth Collinshttps://theosophy.net/profile/TruthC
<p>Hi Lady Line,</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I thought I'd give a more personal response because I find it difficult to give an academic response when H.P. Blavatsky didn't appear to be promoting dogmatic attitude of theosophical orthodoxy. By academic I mean a response that say here is what she thought. Since she was enigmatic it is difficult to say what she might say were she to respond to our conversation. While she was direct she also talked about blinds and was known for her mysteriousness and sense…</p>
<p>Hi Lady Line,</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I thought I'd give a more personal response because I find it difficult to give an academic response when H.P. Blavatsky didn't appear to be promoting dogmatic attitude of theosophical orthodoxy. By academic I mean a response that say here is what she thought. Since she was enigmatic it is difficult to say what she might say were she to respond to our conversation. While she was direct she also talked about blinds and was known for her mysteriousness and sense of humor.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I don't know much about WICCA. What would you say it is more focused upon? Eastern or western history, people, traditions, and ideas? If I were to guess, which I am, I'd say western. But I don't know which direction it's gone since. Probably in several directions, depending upon the authors or groups promoting it.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>In the early days of the T.S., the 1875 cycle, since it involved groups of people doing group discussions and readings there were naturally differences in taste as to what to focus upon as a group. Some early theosophists recoiled from the idea of focusing upon eastern traditions and wanted instead to focus upon the western traditions. I imagine that it must have been much more of a culture shock than it is today. So apparently distant, etc... Not like the milliseconds or seconds of delay involved in a modern phone call or internet connection. As such, the Golden Dawn, and perhaps the H.B.of L. too, were initially focused upon the western thought and traditions but later that changed.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Of the theosophists I've known, ritual is not regarded by them as the main event unless their focused upon it, in which case it is. While they may hold a sense of reverence towards such, especially if it has survived the test of time, and perhaps be involved in such, I have known few who were heavily into rituals. Though it may be due to my age for I think that rituals have waned in popularity. 75 years ago or so they appear to have been much more popular. None the less there is still an attitude of respect or at least good humor. For example, the saying of an old prayer or mantra might be more commonly appreciated because it has been preserved as valuable by generations of people. If it still resonates with individuals then the ritual will be welcomed by them. As you see, it is a very individual matter, as theosophists are famous for disagreeing on particulars, though agreeing on the basic gist or universals. It goes without saying that theosophists are just people who are aware of a certain range of ideas and who may hold appropriate attitudes towards such ideas. Of those I've met many display a careful sense of detachment, as in "all the world is a stage," though some are very critical of rituals. It goes to show that you just can't tell sometimes.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>What I'm saying is that it's up to you, of which no doubt, you're already aware.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>As far as myself, I question if such a ritual is just people using each other, whether it's play acting, or what. Like I said, I don't know much about it.</p> Thank you all for your explan…tag:theosophy.net,2011-10-21:3055387:Comment:835092011-10-21T01:59:04.748ZTruth Collinshttps://theosophy.net/profile/TruthC
<p>Thank you all for your explanations. In this regards, I found the wikipedia entry on the New Forest Coven of interest, in which there was some reference to associated individuals being theosophists.</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Forest_coven" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Forest_coven</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p>"Meanwhile, he met a group of people within the Fellowship who claimed to have been involved in a form of …</p>
<p>Thank you all for your explanations. In this regards, I found the wikipedia entry on the New Forest Coven of interest, in which there was some reference to associated individuals being theosophists.</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Forest_coven" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Forest_coven</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p>"Meanwhile, he met a group of people within the Fellowship who claimed to have been involved in a form of <a title="Freemasonry" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemasonry" rel="nofollow">Freemasonry</a> known as <a class="mw-redirect" title="Co-Masonry" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-Masonry" rel="nofollow">Co-Masonry</a>, who informed him that they had moved to the area where they had joined the Rosicrucian Order when their friend and fellow Co-Mason, <a title="Mabel Besant-Scott" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mabel_Besant-Scott" rel="nofollow">Mabel Besant-Scott</a>, had done so.<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-12"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Forest_coven#cite_note-12" rel="nofollow"><span>[</span>13<span>]</span></a></sup> The researcher Philip Heselton identified two of these individuals as Ernest and Susie Mason, a brother and sister couple who had in prior decades been involved in a variety of occult groups, including Co-Masonry and <a title="Theosophy" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theosophy" rel="nofollow">Theosophy</a>, and who had recently moved to the area from Southampton.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>...</p>
<p> </p>
<p>"This group claimed to have known Gardner from a <a title="Reincarnation" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reincarnation" rel="nofollow">past life</a>, and in September 1939, revealed to him that they were members of a Witches' coven, and then initiated him into Wicca in a ritual which took place in one of the homes owned by <a title="Dorothy Clutterbuck" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothy_Clutterbuck" rel="nofollow">Dorothy Clutterbuck</a>.<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-15"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Forest_coven#cite_note-15" rel="nofollow"><span>[</span></a></sup></p>
<p> </p>
<p>...</p>
<p> </p>
<h3><span id="The_Mason_family" class="mw-headline">"The Mason family</span></h3>
<p>The Mason family, researched by Heselton, lived in Southampton for a period of over 150 years. One of Heselton's informants described Ernie in particular and the family in general, as 'witches', adding that Ernie, who he had known for several years, had had to give up because he found the rituals too strenuous.<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-HeseltonRoots_18-1"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Forest_coven#cite_note-HeseltonRoots-18" rel="nofollow"><span>[</span>19<span>]</span></a></sup> Rosetta was a keen follower of <a title="Anthroposophy" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthroposophy" rel="nofollow">Anthroposophy</a>; Susie was a <a class="mw-redirect" title="Co-Freemason" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-Freemason" rel="nofollow">Co-Freemason</a> and <a title="Theosophy" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theosophy" rel="nofollow">Theosophist</a>, and Ernie, who claimed to have been fully aware from the moment of his birth, was an enthusiastic esotericist and taught mental exercises in the Crotona Fellowship. Their father George Miles Mason, an optician and astronomer, had built a meeting hall in <a title="Southampton" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southampton" rel="nofollow">Southampton</a> which seems to have been used for the meetings of various esoteric groups, including Co-Freemasonry. ..."</p>
<p> </p>
<p>So perhaps the area had a history of open mindedness where people explored or maintained such ideas.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Michael wrote:</p>
<blockquote cite="http://theosnet.ning.com/forum/topics/theosophical-view-about-wicca#3055387Comment82175"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p>"Gerald Gardner did add to whatever he had learned from the New Forest Coven elements of ceremonial magick, old grimoires and some ideas from the practices and theories of his personal friend, Alistair Crowley. This is probably where the notion that Wicca sprang from the Golden Dawn originated, as Crowley himself was once a member of the GD."</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote> Hey Joe,
I was wondering wh…tag:theosophy.net,2011-10-21:3055387:Comment:833172011-10-21T01:45:58.102ZTruth Collinshttps://theosophy.net/profile/TruthC
<p>Hey Joe,</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I was wondering what you meant by specific yoga teachings? Is it a reference to a yoga tradition in particular or to the general idea of it being similar to yoga?<br></br> <br></br> <cite>Joe Fulton said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://theosnet.ning.com/forum/topics/theosophical-view-about-wicca#3055387Comment81539"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p> "...and since the ES was based on specific yoga teachings it tended to be a bit thoretical and quasi-monastic. If…</p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Hey Joe,</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I was wondering what you meant by specific yoga teachings? Is it a reference to a yoga tradition in particular or to the general idea of it being similar to yoga?<br/> <br/>
<cite>Joe Fulton said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://theosnet.ning.com/forum/topics/theosophical-view-about-wicca#3055387Comment81539"><div><div class="xg_user_generated"><p> "...and since the ES was based on specific yoga teachings it tended to be a bit thoretical and quasi-monastic. If you have access, see Vol. 12 of HPB's <em>Collected Writings</em>."</p>
<p> </p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>