THE RELEVANCE OF ANCIENT WISDOM - Theosophy.Net2024-03-29T08:52:01Zhttps://theosophy.net/forum/topics/the-relevance-of-ancient?commentId=3055387%3AComment%3A46279&feed=yes&xn_auth=noThanks Nicholas.
Historically…tag:theosophy.net,2011-04-25:3055387:Comment:465332011-04-25T02:45:09.629ZCapt. Anand Kumarhttps://theosophy.net/profile/CaptAnandKumar
<p>Thanks Nicholas.</p>
<p>Historically, knowledge has been used as a tool to keep the population subjugated. Rtaher than for welfare of all it was used to propagate welfare of a few. Those who will join the order by becoming disciple. Just like in former Soviet Union, where one could not get any important post, if one was not the menber of the party.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>But there have been efforts in all ages to give knowledge directly to the people. First effort appears to be the one when the…</p>
<p>Thanks Nicholas.</p>
<p>Historically, knowledge has been used as a tool to keep the population subjugated. Rtaher than for welfare of all it was used to propagate welfare of a few. Those who will join the order by becoming disciple. Just like in former Soviet Union, where one could not get any important post, if one was not the menber of the party.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>But there have been efforts in all ages to give knowledge directly to the people. First effort appears to be the one when the Vedas first got converted into text from the oral tradition. This was an effort to take the learning of vedas to those outside of the oral traditions. The teacher-disciple traditions also were seriously challenged from time to time as would be evident from the stories of Shmabuka from Ramayana and Eklavya from Mahabharata. There are more.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Shankara himself used his conquest to free the knowledge from the clutches of a few. During his conquest all his debates were in public and never within a closed circle. Gautam Buddha gave public discourses too. Rama lived a virtuous life and gave explanation for all his actions totally removing the mystery part of it. There is no dearth of isntances to quote. Let us examine if these made any impact on the followers. Jesus Christ asked his follower to "turn the other cheek", but the followers became the biggest killers of humanity in the history, in the name of Jesus.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Who taught the teachers? Alright, Shankara had Gaudapadacharya and Rama had Vasishtha. But who taught Gautama, Jesus or Krishna? The answer to this question alone will expose the limitations of teacher-disciple principle.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>All the great tecahers gave something new to the humanity. A new thinking. They could not do so by merely reciting what they learnt, but by expanding upon it and by solving the riddles. As the folklore goes, the identification of the house of Mandan Mishra (whose wife is believed to have defeated Shankaracharya by asking questions about sex ) was that even the parrots were reciting Vedas. The symbolism is difficult to miss.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><cite>Nicholas Weeks said:</cite></p>
<blockquote><div><p>Every class in any subject has students who fail to understand; and that is just intellectually. In spiritual or ethical growth it is similar. Without an inner drive & inspiration, no guru, no matter how wise or skilled a teacher can help. The qualifications for the student must be fulfilled.</p>
<p>More context from Shankara's <em>Crest Jewel of Discernment:</em><br/><br/><font face="Times New Roman">14. Success depends essentially on a qualified aspirant; time, place and other such</font> <font face="Times New Roman">means are but auxiliaries in this regard.</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">15. Hence the seeker after the Reality of the Atman should take to reasoning, after duly</font> <font face="Times New Roman">approaching the Guru – who should be the best of the knowers of Brahman, and an</font> <font face="Times New Roman">ocean of mercy.</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">16. An intelligent and learned man skilled in arguing in favour of the Scriptures and in</font> <font face="Times New Roman">refuting counter-arguments against them – one who has got the above characteristics is</font> <font face="Times New Roman">the fit recipient of the knowledge of the Atman.</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">17. The man who discriminates between the Real and the unreal, whose mind is turned</font> <font face="Times New Roman">away from the unreal, who possesses calmness and the allied virtues, and who is</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">longing for Liberation, is alone considered qualified to enquire after Brahman.</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">18. Regarding this, sages have spoken of four means of attainment, which alone being</font> <font face="Times New Roman">present, the devotion to Brahman succeeds, and in the absence of which, it fails.</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">19. First is enumerated discrimination between the Real and the unreal; next comes</font> <font face="Times New Roman">aversion to the enjoyment of fruits (of one’s actions) here and hereafter; (next is) the</font> <font face="Times New Roman">group of six attributes, viz. calmness and the rest; and (last) is clearly the yearning for</font> <font face="Times New Roman">Liberation.</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">20. A firm conviction of the mind to the effect that Brahman is real and the universe</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">unreal, is designated as discrimination (Viveka) between the Real and the unreal.</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">21. Vairagya or renunciation is the desire to give up all transitory enjoyments (ranging)</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">from those of an (animate) body to those of Brahmahood (having already known their</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">defects) from observation, instruction and so forth.</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">22. The resting of the mind steadfastly on its Goal (viz. Brahman) after having detached</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">itself from manifold sense-objects by continually observing their defects, is called</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">Shama or calmness.</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">23. Turning both kinds of sense-organs away from sense-objects and placing them in</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">their respective centres, is called Dama or self-control. The best Uparati or selfwithdrawal</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">consists in the mind-function ceasing to be affected by external objects.</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">24. The bearing of all afflictions without caring to redress them, being free (at the same</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">time) from anxiety or lament on their score, is called Titiksha or forbearance.</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">25. Acceptance by firm judgment as true of what the Scriptures and the Guru instruct, is</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">called by sages Shraddha or faith, by means of which the Reality is perceived.</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">26. Not the mere indulgence of thought (in curiosity) but the constant concentration of</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">the intellect (or the affirming faculty) on the ever-pure Brahman, is what is called</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">Samadhana or self-settledness.</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">27. Mumukshuta or yearning for Freedom is the desire to free oneself, by realising one’s</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">true nature, from all bondages from that of egoism to that of the body – bondages</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">superimposed by Ignorance.</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">28. Even though torpid or mediocre, this yearning for Freedom, through the grace of the</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">Guru, may bear fruit (being developed) by means of Vairagya (renunciation), Shama</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">(calmness), and so on.</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">29. In his case, verily, whose renunciation and yearning for Freedom are intense,</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">calmness and the other practices have (really) their meaning and bear fruit.</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">30. Where (however) this renunciation and yearning for Freedom are torpid, there</font></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman">calmness and the other practices are as mere appearances, like water in a desert.</font></p>
</div>
</blockquote> Every class in any subject ha…tag:theosophy.net,2011-04-24:3055387:Comment:462912011-04-24T13:48:32.795ZNicholas Weekshttps://theosophy.net/profile/NicholasWeeks
<p>Every class in any subject has students who fail to understand; and that is just intellectually. In spiritual or ethical growth it is similar. Without an inner drive & inspiration, no guru, no matter how wise or skilled a teacher can help. The qualifications for the student must be fulfilled.</p>
<p>More context from Shankara's <em>Crest Jewel of Discernment:</em><br></br><br></br><font face="Times New Roman">14. Success depends essentially on a qualified aspirant; time, place and other…</font></p>
<p>Every class in any subject has students who fail to understand; and that is just intellectually. In spiritual or ethical growth it is similar. Without an inner drive & inspiration, no guru, no matter how wise or skilled a teacher can help. The qualifications for the student must be fulfilled.</p>
<p>More context from Shankara's <em>Crest Jewel of Discernment:</em><br/><br/><font face="Times New Roman">14. Success depends essentially on a qualified aspirant; time, place and other such</font> <font face="Times New Roman">means are but auxiliaries in this regard.</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">15. Hence the seeker after the Reality of the Atman should take to reasoning, after duly</font> <font face="Times New Roman">approaching the Guru – who should be the best of the knowers of Brahman, and an</font> <font face="Times New Roman">ocean of mercy.</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">16. An intelligent and learned man skilled in arguing in favour of the Scriptures and in</font> <font face="Times New Roman">refuting counter-arguments against them – one who has got the above characteristics is</font> <font face="Times New Roman">the fit recipient of the knowledge of the Atman.</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">17. The man who discriminates between the Real and the unreal, whose mind is turned</font> <font face="Times New Roman">away from the unreal, who possesses calmness and the allied virtues, and who is</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">longing for Liberation, is alone considered qualified to enquire after Brahman.</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">18. Regarding this, sages have spoken of four means of attainment, which alone being</font> <font face="Times New Roman">present, the devotion to Brahman succeeds, and in the absence of which, it fails.</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">19. First is enumerated discrimination between the Real and the unreal; next comes</font> <font face="Times New Roman">aversion to the enjoyment of fruits (of one’s actions) here and hereafter; (next is) the</font> <font face="Times New Roman">group of six attributes, viz. calmness and the rest; and (last) is clearly the yearning for</font> <font face="Times New Roman">Liberation.</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">20. A firm conviction of the mind to the effect that Brahman is real and the universe</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">unreal, is designated as discrimination (Viveka) between the Real and the unreal.</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">21. Vairagya or renunciation is the desire to give up all transitory enjoyments (ranging)</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">from those of an (animate) body to those of Brahmahood (having already known their</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">defects) from observation, instruction and so forth.</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">22. The resting of the mind steadfastly on its Goal (viz. Brahman) after having detached</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">itself from manifold sense-objects by continually observing their defects, is called</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">Shama or calmness.</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">23. Turning both kinds of sense-organs away from sense-objects and placing them in</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">their respective centres, is called Dama or self-control. The best Uparati or selfwithdrawal</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">consists in the mind-function ceasing to be affected by external objects.</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">24. The bearing of all afflictions without caring to redress them, being free (at the same</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">time) from anxiety or lament on their score, is called Titiksha or forbearance.</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">25. Acceptance by firm judgment as true of what the Scriptures and the Guru instruct, is</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">called by sages Shraddha or faith, by means of which the Reality is perceived.</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">26. Not the mere indulgence of thought (in curiosity) but the constant concentration of</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">the intellect (or the affirming faculty) on the ever-pure Brahman, is what is called</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">Samadhana or self-settledness.</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">27. Mumukshuta or yearning for Freedom is the desire to free oneself, by realising one’s</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">true nature, from all bondages from that of egoism to that of the body – bondages</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">superimposed by Ignorance.</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">28. Even though torpid or mediocre, this yearning for Freedom, through the grace of the</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">Guru, may bear fruit (being developed) by means of Vairagya (renunciation), Shama</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">(calmness), and so on.</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">29. In his case, verily, whose renunciation and yearning for Freedom are intense,</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">calmness and the other practices have (really) their meaning and bear fruit.</font></p>
<p align="left"><font face="Times New Roman">30. Where (however) this renunciation and yearning for Freedom are torpid, there</font></p>
<p><font face="Times New Roman">calmness and the other practices are as mere appearances, like water in a desert.</font></p> Actually, the text with which…tag:theosophy.net,2011-04-24:3055387:Comment:464242011-04-24T13:00:31.309ZMartin Euserhttps://theosophy.net/profile/MartinEuser
<p>Actually, the text with which it all starts forms recipe #1, but I couldn't edit the main text later on to insert the number #1. (Ning doesn't allow one to do that). So, it is:</p>
<p>#1: Connect the seemingly isolated mass of cultural creatives.</p>
<div class="discussion"><div class="description"><p>Help them exchange ideas, narratives, methods.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Links:…</p>
</div>
</div>
<p>Actually, the text with which it all starts forms recipe #1, but I couldn't edit the main text later on to insert the number #1. (Ning doesn't allow one to do that). So, it is:</p>
<p>#1: Connect the seemingly isolated mass of cultural creatives.</p>
<div class="discussion"><div class="description"><p>Help them exchange ideas, narratives, methods.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Links: <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.culturalcreatives.org/connections.html">http://www.culturalcreatives.org/connections.html</a></p>
<p>and <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.ecolivingcenter.com/ring/webring.html">http://www.ecolivingcenter.com/ring/webring.html</a></p>
<p> </p>
<p>and for our Dutch readers: <a rel="nofollow" href="http://www.gevoeligheidalskracht.nl/waardenennormen.htm">http://www.gevoeligheidalskracht.nl/waardenennormen.htm</a></p>
<p>(other readers: use Google translate to understand these texts)</p>
<p> </p>
</div>
</div>
<p> </p>
<p><cite>Capt. Anand Kumar said:</cite></p>
<blockquote cite="http://theosnet.ning.com/forum/topics/the-relevance-of-ancient?commentId=3055387%3AComment%3A46279&xg_source=activity#3055387Comment46423"><div><p>Thanks Martin.</p>
<p>Recipe no.1 is missing in the link provided, which begins with the recipe no.2.</p>
<p><br/><br/><cite>Martin Euser said:</cite></p>
<blockquote><div>Captain, I'll post <a target="_self" href="http://theosnet.ning.com/forum/topics/recipe-for-global-change">here a link to my recipes.</a> In #11, one will find some general ideas as well. Nothing works better than good examples. Humans are copy cats and social animals. The modern network technology can help to spread ideas and sane practices/habits. Paul McCartney's endorsement of "Meatless Monday" being an example. "<a target="_blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_Day">Earth day</a>" being another. There is so much info available today that there is no excuse anymore to be not informed about things. True wisdom is eternal. It's form and expression will vary with the ages, being adapted to fit the temperament of the people and condition of society. It's up to the individual to find his or her own way in these things. With the coming of the Aquarius age, cooperation in groups will become ever more important, to find ways of sustainable living. Ideas of unity in difference and connectedness are gaining ground now. That ties in with theosophical thought. The age of ego is slowly changing into the age of community. Personally, I believe we may be in for some hard times. But that's another discussion.</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote> Thanks Martin.
Recipe no.1 is…tag:theosophy.net,2011-04-24:3055387:Comment:464232011-04-24T12:52:55.123ZCapt. Anand Kumarhttps://theosophy.net/profile/CaptAnandKumar
<p>Thanks Martin.</p>
<p>Recipe no.1 is missing in the link provided, which begins with the recipe no.2.</p>
<p><br></br><br></br><cite>Martin Euser said:</cite></p>
<blockquote><div>Captain, I'll post <a href="http://theosnet.ning.com/forum/topics/recipe-for-global-change" target="_self">here a link to my recipes.</a> In #11, one will find some general ideas as well. Nothing works better than good examples. Humans are copy cats and social animals. The modern network technology can help to spread ideas…</div>
</blockquote>
<p>Thanks Martin.</p>
<p>Recipe no.1 is missing in the link provided, which begins with the recipe no.2.</p>
<p><br/><br/><cite>Martin Euser said:</cite></p>
<blockquote><div>Captain, I'll post <a target="_self" href="http://theosnet.ning.com/forum/topics/recipe-for-global-change">here a link to my recipes.</a> In #11, one will find some general ideas as well. Nothing works better than good examples. Humans are copy cats and social animals. The modern network technology can help to spread ideas and sane practices/habits. Paul McCartney's endorsement of "Meatless Monday" being an example. "<a target="_blank" rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_Day">Earth day</a>" being another. There is so much info available today that there is no excuse anymore to be not informed about things. True wisdom is eternal. It's form and expression will vary with the ages, being adapted to fit the temperament of the people and condition of society. It's up to the individual to find his or her own way in these things. With the coming of the Aquarius age, cooperation in groups will become ever more important, to find ways of sustainable living. Ideas of unity in difference and connectedness are gaining ground now. That ties in with theosophical thought. The age of ego is slowly changing into the age of community. Personally, I believe we may be in for some hard times. But that's another discussion.</div>
</blockquote> principles such as the golden…tag:theosophy.net,2011-04-24:3055387:Comment:462822011-04-24T11:08:22.788ZMartin Euserhttps://theosophy.net/profile/MartinEuser
principles such as the golden rule ("do not unto others what you would not like to be done unto you") and karma ("what you sow is what you will reap") are eternal. Together with ideas such as "unity in diversity" these principles can be promoted and explained (and they are being done so) through several media. Humanity being as it is, it usually learns best through hardship and adversity brought about by its stupidity and arrogance. Especially, the failure of the political, intellectual and…
principles such as the golden rule ("do not unto others what you would not like to be done unto you") and karma ("what you sow is what you will reap") are eternal. Together with ideas such as "unity in diversity" these principles can be promoted and explained (and they are being done so) through several media. Humanity being as it is, it usually learns best through hardship and adversity brought about by its stupidity and arrogance. Especially, the failure of the political, intellectual and economical elite, during the last centuries, have brought us in the current deplorable situation. <br/> Captain, I'll post here a lin…tag:theosophy.net,2011-04-24:3055387:Comment:462792011-04-24T10:12:39.428ZMartin Euserhttps://theosophy.net/profile/MartinEuser
Captain, I'll post <a href="http://theosnet.ning.com/forum/topics/recipe-for-global-change" target="_self">here a link to my recipes.</a> In #11, one will find some general ideas as well. Nothing works better than good examples. Humans are copy cats and social animals. The modern network technology can help to spread ideas and sane practices/habits. Paul McCartney's endorsement of "Meatless Monday" being an example. "…
Captain, I'll post <a href="http://theosnet.ning.com/forum/topics/recipe-for-global-change" target="_self">here a link to my recipes.</a> In #11, one will find some general ideas as well. Nothing works better than good examples. Humans are copy cats and social animals. The modern network technology can help to spread ideas and sane practices/habits. Paul McCartney's endorsement of "Meatless Monday" being an example. "<a rel="nofollow" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_Day" target="_blank">Earth day</a>" being another. There is so much info available today that there is no excuse anymore to be not informed about things. True wisdom is eternal. It's form and expression will vary with the ages, being adapted to fit the temperament of the people and condition of society. It's up to the individual to find his or her own way in these things. With the coming of the Aquarius age, cooperation in groups will become ever more important, to find ways of sustainable living. Ideas of unity in difference and connectedness are gaining ground now. That ties in with theosophical thought. The age of ego is slowly changing into the age of community. Personally, I believe we may be in for some hard times. But that's another discussion. Poor communication skills is…tag:theosophy.net,2011-04-24:3055387:Comment:462762011-04-24T05:46:05.946ZCapt. Anand Kumarhttps://theosophy.net/profile/CaptAnandKumar
<p>Poor communication skills is in the context of the quantum of impact their teachings had on the humanity as a whole. For example, Lord Rama communicated to the Hindus regarding the absurdity of "Untouchability" by eating the already bitten berries from the hands of an untouchable, Shabari. Did his communication had any impact on the Hindus?</p>
<p>Shankara may be admitting his own failure, where the Knowledge (which otherwise is communicated as supreme, being path to the light) becomes…</p>
<p>Poor communication skills is in the context of the quantum of impact their teachings had on the humanity as a whole. For example, Lord Rama communicated to the Hindus regarding the absurdity of "Untouchability" by eating the already bitten berries from the hands of an untouchable, Shabari. Did his communication had any impact on the Hindus?</p>
<p>Shankara may be admitting his own failure, where the Knowledge (which otherwise is communicated as supreme, being path to the light) becomes secondary to the "Readiness" of the disciple.</p>
<p><br/><cite>Nicholas Weeks said:</cite></p>
<blockquote><div><p>If it were mainly a matter of Their poor "communication" skills that would leave humanity in the clear would it not? Those blundering ancient (and modern) Adepts - how sad; we deserve better do we not; we know better is it not so?</p>
<p>As Shankara put it: "Readiness of the disciple is all important. Knowledge, practices, meditation, prayer etc. are secondary."</p>
</div>
</blockquote> If it were mainly a matter of…tag:theosophy.net,2011-04-24:3055387:Comment:462712011-04-24T04:56:57.292ZNicholas Weekshttps://theosophy.net/profile/NicholasWeeks
<p>If it were mainly a matter of Their poor "communication" skills that would leave humanity in the clear would it not? Those blundering ancient (and modern) Adepts - how sad; we deserve better do we not; we know better is it not so?</p>
<p>As Shankara put it: "Readiness of the disciple is all important. Knowledge, practices, meditation, prayer etc. are secondary."</p>
<p>If it were mainly a matter of Their poor "communication" skills that would leave humanity in the clear would it not? Those blundering ancient (and modern) Adepts - how sad; we deserve better do we not; we know better is it not so?</p>
<p>As Shankara put it: "Readiness of the disciple is all important. Knowledge, practices, meditation, prayer etc. are secondary."</p>