The mosque in the Zero....(o la MOSCA islamica en la 'sopa' multicultural) you name it...

Let's be brave, and start a good discussion about the real meaning of tolerance - and I KNOW some people here in the site will have their skin shivered when I say this: WHAT ABOUT THE MOSQUE THEY WANT TO BUILD CLOSE TO THE 'ZERO ZONE' (or ground 'zero' for the US people)

It is still a touchy subject, some people you knewed and loved died there...but we cannot close eyes and ears, to years and years of killings in the name of 'liberty' that US has done in all over the world, I AM NOT JUSTIFYING THIS AT ANY EXTENT, any DEATH is a CRIME and as Theosophist you may know that.

But it is also TRUE that many people are not US citizens, and US has done - as a government not their people of course - a lot of problems in a lot of countries in around the globe. When is the Tolerance starts? as a very HEAVY KARMA - already been payed right now by US deaths in 9-11 and in this wars in Mideast, i would want the people here in the forum, as Theosophists, to face the touchy subject and tell me, the pro/cons of the decision Obama made, of starting the built of a Mosque there, close to where the extinct towers were.

I know that, as US citizens, will be more difficult to some of you to talk about this. Probably you lost some relative, some friend...but we cannot hide the fact, and remain discussions about lighter matters.

And in other parts of the world - like my Mexico - we have different points of view on the subject. WHEN the tolerance will start? Why? Do the younger people have 'more' tolerance' than the oldest? Do you live in a different "US" more tolerant, more narrow, what is happening??

I will attach this links to Mexican news from US that sometimes -as always - are blocked by main US media. probably you can find some good topic for discussion here....

You can translate it with Google translator.

Not my intention to offend anybody. I know how hard 'political correctness' can be.

Cheers and Peace. We ALL deserve Peace. ALL.


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I once had a quick glance thru the booklet. Can't remember the exact details of the calculations. You may want to put these online.
AFAIK the Kali yuga is subdivided into smaller portions, so, it depends on how one looks at this matter. As always, more than one interpretation is possible. When we take the (theosophically attributed) characteristics of the Kali yuga into consideration, to wit: an era in which things are fast moving, chaotic, stressed, etc., I would say that current times fall flat within this period, and I don't see it changing very soon..
We're in luck Martin!

I think it's also important to know there are other calculations for Kali Yuga.. When I first heard of the extent of Kali Yuga some years ago at a class at the Ashram it depressed me... but there are reasons to hope ..

A brief synopsis of Yukteswar's The Holy Science is on Wikepedia at

Sri Yukteswar’s introduction to The Holy Science includes his explanation of the Yuga Cycle – revolutionary because of his premise that the earth is now in the age of Dwapara Yuga, not the Kali Yuga that most Indian pundits believe to be the current age.[4] His theory is based on the idea that the sun “takes some star for its dual and revolves round it in about 24,000 years of our earth – a celestial phenomenon which causes the backward movement of the equinoctial points around the zodiac.”[1] The common explanation for this celestial phenomenon is precession, the ‘wobbling’ rotating movement of the earth axis. Research into Sri Yukteswar’s explanation is being conducted by the Binary Research Institute.

He further states that:

The sun also has another motion by which it revolves round a grand center called Bishnunavi which is the seat of the creative power Brahma, the universal magnetism. Brahma regulates Dharma the mental virtues of the internal world. When the sun in its revolution round its dual come to the place nearest to this grand center the seat of Brahma (an event which takes place when the autumnal equinox comes to the first point of Aries) Dharma the mental virtue becomes so much developed that man can easily comprehend all, even the mysteries of Spirit.[1]

In The Holy Science, Sri Yukteswar concludes that we are currently in the beginning stages of Dwapara Yuga, which began around 1699 A.D. This now puts us in the year 310 Dwapara according to Sri Yukteswar. Thus, we are moving closer to the grand center, and will pass into Treta Yuga around the year 4099 A.D.[1]
An interesting article on Yukeswar's calcualtions of the Yugas can also be seen in this Wiki article:
whether we are in luck or not remains to be seen.
A duck is still a duck, whether we label it swan, nightingale, or elephant. The many wars we have witnessed the last centuries are more reminiscent of ugly Kali yuga than anything else..
or the 2012 according to the mayas and other nuts on the net.
(of course, all of us wanting that to be true)

I'm getting tired of wating....
Hi, excuse this short message.
The name of esoteric path into Shia is 'Irfan, but it requires many years of scholarly study, like lamas in Tibet. 'Irfan is translated as gnosis and is inside the same root that ma'arifah, the fourth level of understanding in sufism (levels: sharia-law, tariqah-esoteric path, haiqah-reality, real transformation and ma'rifah-face to face knowledg of Divine).
Besides Shia are many branches that are called batiny, esoteric, hidden in relation to the esoteric meaning of Quran and other writings. Druzes and some minor branches located in Syria and Kurdistan are batiny and its range of belief go from reencarnation to avataras, etc. and are regarded as heretics by orthodox (sunni or shii).
By the way, ASMA means Names, in relation to The Most Beautiful Names of God (al Asma' al Husna) and this use of acronims has a sufic flavor.
Aside from what Leila mentioned above you have the word "Tasawwuf" which means spiritual science.. The word Sufi derives from it. Arabic: تصوّف‎
Thank you very much for your contribution, Leila!!!
I will let Ferran respond here also but from my own study..

You have the Hadiths attributed to the Imams descendents of Prophet Muhammad.. Considerable teachings by Imam Ali cousin and son-in-law to Prophet Muhammad that are mystical in nature.. Many Sufis reccognize Ali as the source of their traditiosn.

Today in Iran however Sufis are not that approved of... even in Turkey the Sufis had a difficult time for awhile they were prohibited.. India has Sufis of course..
I would say generally that the mystics in Islam have had the same problems or issues that mystics have had in Christianity..THey are often branded as heretics and some are suppressd and executed..

When Jacob Boehme died they didn't want him buried in church ground.. When a stone was rected for him it was desecrated.

Of course some works by the Sufi poets are still admired such as Hafiz, Attar, Sa'adi and others..of course Rumi..
The main difference between Sunna or mainstram Islam and S'hia Islam is that S'hia people are waiting for the Imam al-Mahdi and Sunna people are not. So most Muslims are not waiting for anyone.
Please notice I did not write the word "Messiah". I wrote the word "teacher" in capital letters and that maybe was a mistake...
If the question is "do we need teachers?" the answer is : YES, we do. And every teacher needs students to fulfill his work, not followers but students.
This would probably be a good time Ferran to offer this article found at Wiki on the Mahdi:

It has a pretty good analysis and summary of the views. I think the concept of Mahdi unites people.. I think this would be similar to the expectation of "Messiah".. One Who liberates people spiritually and gives them a common Cause..


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