Human rights versus politics - Theosophy.Net2024-03-29T16:01:15Zhttps://theosophy.net/forum/topics/human-rights-versus-politics?commentId=3055387%3AComment%3A1872&feed=yes&xn_auth=noDon't forget about the concep…tag:theosophy.net,2009-04-01:3055387:Comment:28162009-04-01T16:53:17.523ZAndrew W. Smithhttps://theosophy.net/profile/AndrewWSmith
Don't forget about the concept of Buddhist "dependent origination" or "mutally arising." Lots of wisdom there!
Don't forget about the concept of Buddhist "dependent origination" or "mutally arising." Lots of wisdom there! The example is, of course, ex…tag:theosophy.net,2009-04-01:3055387:Comment:26082009-04-01T01:32:57.452ZCharles Cosimanohttps://theosophy.net/profile/CharlesCosimano
The example is, of course, extreme, and reminds of me of a problem posed in philosophy classes in Europe in the 1960s. The problem was what would a country do if a nuclear power threated to attack it unless an innocent citizen was executed.<br />
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For obvious reasons the question was never raised in any US ethics class of the time that I am aware of. In fact, when our philosophy professor told us about it he was laughing at the obvious absurdity of it being applied to us. (I remember my own laughing…
The example is, of course, extreme, and reminds of me of a problem posed in philosophy classes in Europe in the 1960s. The problem was what would a country do if a nuclear power threated to attack it unless an innocent citizen was executed.<br />
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For obvious reasons the question was never raised in any US ethics class of the time that I am aware of. In fact, when our philosophy professor told us about it he was laughing at the obvious absurdity of it being applied to us. (I remember my own laughing response came with the line, "Mommy, why are all those bombers taking off?") But the concept behind the question is valid. No matter how spiritual a society may be, at what point does it cease to be spiritual and deal with the need to be unspiritual? does choice really exist? or…tag:theosophy.net,2009-03-31:3055387:Comment:22222009-03-31T09:05:43.525ZMikhayl Von Riebonhttps://theosophy.net/profile/MikhaylVonRiebon
does choice really exist? or are our choices and actions simply the result of necessary holistic action (like as if there is a need for it to happen)? i mean unless a person sees reason to do otherwise (like maybe they have a point to prove and the cost isnt that great, or perhaps they are unstable) a person will generally 'choose' the best possible action according to their views and conditioning. it could be said that the conditions in the 1930s were so precise that it was inevitable that a…
does choice really exist? or are our choices and actions simply the result of necessary holistic action (like as if there is a need for it to happen)? i mean unless a person sees reason to do otherwise (like maybe they have a point to prove and the cost isnt that great, or perhaps they are unstable) a person will generally 'choose' the best possible action according to their views and conditioning. it could be said that the conditions in the 1930s were so precise that it was inevitable that a hitler would come about and that ww2 would start, and like wise we could imagine that perhaps the conditions in blavatskys time were so perfect that it was inevitable and necessary that there was a blavatsky, to balance out the system. perhaps she understood the need for her struggle and so egotistical desires were not considered, she simply acted in the most natural way, possibly the same story with Besant. perhaps this a discussion for another forum. sorry, i mean to explain that…tag:theosophy.net,2009-03-31:3055387:Comment:22142009-03-31T08:57:31.956ZMikhayl Von Riebonhttps://theosophy.net/profile/MikhaylVonRiebon
sorry, i mean to explain that if society came to see all as one being, then death would be an illusory notion, and so what would be the ethical implications in regards to ego's used as tools rather then satisfying each ego's desires? in away resources would not need to follow the 20/80 rule, as there wouldnt be an 'i' to want more then anyone else. but if society began to see itself as a collective how would this look?
sorry, i mean to explain that if society came to see all as one being, then death would be an illusory notion, and so what would be the ethical implications in regards to ego's used as tools rather then satisfying each ego's desires? in away resources would not need to follow the 20/80 rule, as there wouldnt be an 'i' to want more then anyone else. but if society began to see itself as a collective how would this look? Mikhyal: I'm a bit troubled t…tag:theosophy.net,2009-03-31:3055387:Comment:21802009-03-31T06:32:53.312ZKatinka Hesselinkhttps://theosophy.net/profile/KatinkaHesselink
Mikhyal: I'm a bit troubled to hear you say that one body should perhaps be given up in a totally spiritual society - for the welfare of the whole. Wouldn't a totally spiritual society as one you describe not instead start with compassion for everybody? I think it more likely that in the ideal society funds and resources would be distributed in such a way that everybody can live well enough. Like in socialism I guess, but then voluntarily. There would hardly be a need to kill anybody off. There…
Mikhyal: I'm a bit troubled to hear you say that one body should perhaps be given up in a totally spiritual society - for the welfare of the whole. Wouldn't a totally spiritual society as one you describe not instead start with compassion for everybody? I think it more likely that in the ideal society funds and resources would be distributed in such a way that everybody can live well enough. Like in socialism I guess, but then voluntarily. There would hardly be a need to kill anybody off. There really is enough to go around. The reason that right now there doesn't seem to be, is that most people in the western world use way more than they require. Very interesting food for tho…tag:theosophy.net,2009-03-31:3055387:Comment:21462009-03-31T03:38:13.510ZSusan Thomashttps://theosophy.net/profile/SusanThomas
Very interesting food for thought, Mikhayl. Buddhism teaches that all is suffering. We each suffer in different ways, and certainly being imprisoned, dying slowly of malnutrition or dehdration or having a disease for which you cannot receive treatment brings that suffering to the attention of anyone who observes it. I totally agree with you that forcing human rights will never work, it has to evolve, and it usually does so painfully. <b>However</b>, as any parent who has taught a child to walk…
Very interesting food for thought, Mikhayl. Buddhism teaches that all is suffering. We each suffer in different ways, and certainly being imprisoned, dying slowly of malnutrition or dehdration or having a disease for which you cannot receive treatment brings that suffering to the attention of anyone who observes it. I totally agree with you that forcing human rights will never work, it has to evolve, and it usually does so painfully. <b>However</b>, as any parent who has taught a child to walk or ride a bicycle can tell you, growth can be just as painful to watch as it is to experience. We can all learn as the world awakens to the responsibilities that come to individuals achieve certain rights. We can try to "help" in our own ways, but even if everyone has "rights" there will be some who have more "rights" than others, and suffering will continue. No, my point is that definiti…tag:theosophy.net,2009-03-31:3055387:Comment:21432009-03-31T03:06:45.724ZSusan Thomashttps://theosophy.net/profile/SusanThomas
No, my point is that definitions of "good" human rights and "bad" human rights policies are often in the "eye of the beholder" who sees something s/he wants being kept just out of reach by someone who has a different definition. Even though that causes a moral conflict, the beholder still wants what s/he wants.
No, my point is that definitions of "good" human rights and "bad" human rights policies are often in the "eye of the beholder" who sees something s/he wants being kept just out of reach by someone who has a different definition. Even though that causes a moral conflict, the beholder still wants what s/he wants. i think ive come to see the c…tag:theosophy.net,2009-03-31:3055387:Comment:21362009-03-31T02:47:30.131ZMikhayl Von Riebonhttps://theosophy.net/profile/MikhaylVonRiebon
i think ive come to see the current state of affairs as perhaps the most natural outcome to this point, (not that people should be satisfied with it as that too is needed for further development). our human rights and ideals have been a product born out of suffering, and i could only imagine that forcing such rights on countries, who arent perhaps yet ready for that kind of paradigm shift, wouldnt achieve the desired affect.<br />
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if the majority of society suddenly realised the transient nature of…
i think ive come to see the current state of affairs as perhaps the most natural outcome to this point, (not that people should be satisfied with it as that too is needed for further development). our human rights and ideals have been a product born out of suffering, and i could only imagine that forcing such rights on countries, who arent perhaps yet ready for that kind of paradigm shift, wouldnt achieve the desired affect.<br />
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if the majority of society suddenly realised the transient nature of the ego and suffering, i would ask, would rights and ideals still be required? possibly for those who havent come to that conclusion. but how would society function if everyone understood they were all one. would it look something like communism? utilitarianism? i mean if the death of one physical body resulted in better conditions for the other millions of shells, would it be sacrficed? are rights and ideals, which so many stand for, the product of the ego and personality, which as far as the absolute goes, doesnt even really have any true/sovereign authority to enforce those rights? It depends on where in China.…tag:theosophy.net,2009-03-30:3055387:Comment:20532009-03-30T17:04:32.339ZCharles Cosimanohttps://theosophy.net/profile/CharlesCosimano
It depends on where in China.<br />
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In the large cities in Eastern China the problem is underground but still there. In the Western half of China the situation is roughly that of Mexico right now, with drugs easily available from Afghanistan and the army and police in the pay of the drug lords.
It depends on where in China.<br />
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In the large cities in Eastern China the problem is underground but still there. In the Western half of China the situation is roughly that of Mexico right now, with drugs easily available from Afghanistan and the army and police in the pay of the drug lords. My example was about small co…tag:theosophy.net,2009-03-30:3055387:Comment:18722009-03-30T07:53:34.798ZKatinka Hesselinkhttps://theosophy.net/profile/KatinkaHesselink
My example was about small countries - and the very real political clout the EU has because Eastern European nations want to join it.<br />
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The real question is, I guess, whether that clout should be used to stimulate human rights...<br />
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To Susan - do you really think economic growth comes to those countries where there are human rights? Seems to me China has more economic growth than the US does, despite the fact that the US has far more human rights instituted. Of course the average level of wealth…
My example was about small countries - and the very real political clout the EU has because Eastern European nations want to join it.<br />
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The real question is, I guess, whether that clout should be used to stimulate human rights...<br />
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To Susan - do you really think economic growth comes to those countries where there are human rights? Seems to me China has more economic growth than the US does, despite the fact that the US has far more human rights instituted. Of course the average level of wealth is still higher in the US. Perhaps that's your point? Despite the growing percentage of the population living in poverty.